DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Brainpathology]

Wonderful news on Denver Infill today about Denver destroying Elitch's downtown to be moved elsewhere. As Denver continues to transform itself into a Generic midsized American downtown people like me who have left in somewhat homesick sadness can rest assured that less and less about Denver is going to be unique in the future. Definitely a happy day for anyone missing their old home.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Wonderful news on Denver Infill today about Denver destroying Elitch's downtown to be moved elsewhere. As Denver continues to transform itself into a Generic midsized American downtown people like me who have left in somewhat homesick sadness can rest assured that less and less about Denver is going to be unique in the future. Definitely a happy day for anyone missing their old home.

5Gs.

Good God, Get a Grip Girl.

Elitch's moved downtown in 1994, it's not like they are a historic landmark that's been in their locations for the last century. Also, River Mile, the project you have referenced, is built on the parking lots that are replaced by a parking garage. Elitch's are not moving anytime soon. I don't want to be a 🞵🞵🞵🞵, but reading with comprehension is important. They would only move after completion of Phase 1 when Phase 2 is ready to build. That may be in 10 years, it may be in 20 and it may actually never happen because of this specific project.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mishko27

Elitch's are not moving anytime soon.

If it's anything like Tabor Two it could indeed be a very long time.

Is Josh ever going to get married?
Who knows, man, he'll be 38 in May.

My fantasy is that after Phase One is done that Kroenke's buy out Revesco and preserve Elitch Gardens for children, big and small, to forever enjoy. Maybe someday even Josh's kids will enjoy the park (if he ever gets married).

[CherryCreek]

I love the River Mile vision and ain't that big of a fan of downtown amusement parks, so win-win, from my viewpoint.

I do wonder where Elitches could be moved to - the best locations would have very expensive land. I fear it would end up in Commerce City next to the Rapids Soccer stadium, or something.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

I do wonder where Elitches could be moved to - the best locations would have very expensive land. I fear it would end up in Commerce City next to the Rapids Soccer stadium, or something.

Next to the soccer stadium would be a great location assuming they (Kroenke) own or acquired more land than presently used for the soccer stadium. It's about the only spot for being centrally located and would have good access from Central Park Blvd and Quebec St (via I-70). Otherwise it's off to Aurora near the budding aerotropolis. Not sure Kroenke has any interest in an Amusement Park but if whoever bought the surrounding land then sure, why not?

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by mishko27

5Gs.

Good God, Get a Grip Girl.

Elitch's moved downtown in 1994, it's not like they are a historic landmark that's been in their locations for the last century. Also, .

Exactly, it was always an interim use. I read on Wikipedia that Elitch's bought the 64 acres where the park was situated for $6.1 million. Lol. What will that get you today? An acre lot in RiNO?

[mr1138]

I share the nostalgia for Elitch's, but I'm far more interested in some bigger picture questions that nobody seems to be asking or answering about the long-term future of parkland by the Platte River, and how this is all connected to the flood plain.

Does any fill dirt need to be brought in to change the flood map in the areas labeled "AH" and "AE" on the existing FEMA map before such before such large-scale development? What does Denver Greenways have to say about these plans, and what is the long-term vision for the Platte River Greenway through this area?

I've never been under any delusion that Elitch's would be around forever in its current form (just look at my previous posts on the subject - the land is simply too valuable), but I too am worried that the recreational/landscape design will simply become an afterthought. Part of the brilliance of Riverfront Park is in how the park itself is thoughtfully designed and integrated into the neighborhood. With kid-friendly activities already in the area, such as the Children's Museum, Aquarium, historic trolley line, and plenty of parkland likely to remain in the flood zone (again, I'd like to know exactly how much land and where), there could be a real opportunity to think of this as a whole new kind of city park. I don't think it that far-fetched to consider if perhaps the historic carousel, Ferris wheel, or even the Twister Coaster, could be left as elements in this park.

The Platte Greenway is a big part of what makes this area special, and there's no reason that the Auraria segment shouldn't have a park equally as grand as Commons Park. But with that said, it shouldn't just be a generic duplicate of Commons Park, and should probably acknowledge its existing amenities, historic resources, and cultural identity (which since the early 90s, includes Elitch's). The initial concept rendering depicts a shrunk-down greenway park that leaves little more than a narrow strip of land along the river. I share the fear that this could become a completely development-driven process that ignores importance and opportunity of the public realm.

[CastleScott]

Nice photo shop Matt and btw Denver could have and should have had a building like that AT&T taller version- heck the Brown Palace Hotel planed grand tower of 30 or more stories back before the depression the Brown built their annex in the late 50s instead)-perhaps local politics was on the weak side back then.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by mr1138

I share the nostalgia for Elitch's, but I'm far more interested in some bigger picture questions that nobody seems to be asking or answering about the long-term future of parkland by the Platte River, and how this is all connected to the flood plain.

Does any fill dirt need to be brought in to change the flood map in the areas labeled "AH" and "AE" on the existing FEMA map before such before such large-scale development? What does Denver Greenways have to say about these plans, and what is the long-term vision for the Platte River Greenway through this area?

I've never been under any delusion that Elitch's would be around forever in its current form (just look at my previous posts on the subject - the land is simply too valuable), but I too am worried that the recreational/landscape design will simply become an afterthought. Part of the brilliance of Riverfront Park is in how the park itself is thoughtfully designed and integrated into the neighborhood. With kid-friendly activities already in the area, such as the Children's Museum, Aquarium, historic trolley line, and plenty of parkland likely to remain in the flood zone (again, I'd like to know exactly how much land and where), there could be a real opportunity to think of this as a whole new kind of city park. I don't think it that far-fetched to consider if perhaps the historic carousel, Ferris wheel, or even the Twister Coaster, could be left as elements in this park.

The Platte Greenway is a big part of what makes this area special, and there's no reason that the Auraria segment shouldn't have a park equally as grand as Commons Park. But with that said, it shouldn't just be a generic duplicate of Commons Park, and should probably acknowledge its existing amenities, historic resources, and cultural identity (which since the early 90s, includes Elitch's). The initial concept rendering depicts a shrunk-down greenway park that leaves little more than a narrow strip of land along the river. I share the fear that this could become a completely development-driven process that ignores importance and opportunity of the public realm.

How does this area flood when people control the spigots at the reservoir upstream? I don't understand why this is an issue..?

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Wonderful news on Denver Infill today about Denver destroying Elitch's downtown to be moved elsewhere. As Denver continues to transform itself into a Generic midsized American downtown people like me who have left in somewhat homesick sadness can rest assured that less and less about Denver is going to be unique in the future. Definitely a happy day for anyone missing their old home.

If you have nostalgia about Elitch's being downtown you weren't here for long anyways.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

How does this area flood when people control the spigots at the reservoir upstream? I don't understand why this is an issue..?

Because when snow melts and it rains in the spring the reservoirs fill up. And then when it rains some more, you have to release that water as it comes in so the dam doesn't break. The dams stop the largest of the peaks, but there are still floods and floodplains. They just only flood along the river nowadays instead of flooding half of downtown.

You'll recall in 2013 when half the Front Range flooded... it's not as if we don't have dams upstream on basically every river in the state...

Originally Posted by mr1138

The initial concept rendering depicts a shrunk-down greenway park that leaves little more than a narrow strip of land along the river. I share the fear that this could become a completely development-driven process that ignores importance and opportunity of the public realm.

The initial concept only includes the parking lots. Which do not even reach the river. The only part along the river that's shown in this plan is squeezed next to the area currently occupied by the waste-of-space French garden Mayor Webb built.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

How does this area flood when people control the spigots at the reservoir upstream? I don't understand why this is an issue..?

That is a very complicated question that I cannot completely, but can partially, answer. If you click through the link to the flood map in my earlier post, you can see several flood zone classifications. These are done by engineers with way more mathematical expertise than me (I grew up with a father who did this exact kind of work). If I'm not mistaken, flood zone X roughly corresponds to the area that the reservoir protects. A quick breakdown of floodzones I looked up earlier states that flood insurance is not needed in flood zone X (presumably because yes, the reservoir is assumed to work - it would only flood if the dam failed).

This does not mean there is NO flood plain. The flood map makes that quite clear as well. There are many different flood zones, and it looks like AH and AE both require some kind of insurance. I also believe that not all of the flood protection comes from Chatfield. The river itself and its topography (along with that of the Lakewood Gulch, and all other local tributaries) also contribute. The Platte River Greenway itself is a form of protection, in that it can hold a volume of water on its own. Things like permeable surfaces, dam structures in the river, etc, all also contribute. The way the river was first tamed in the 19th century was an environmental disaster, and it was put in a permanent channel without proper knowledge of its potential flows. It also used to change courses often, but is now scouring itself deeper into the sandy soil where the riverbed has not been stabilized (you can see this up north of I-70). The engineering solutions are a decades-long effort to mitigate this, but the work is no where near done yet.

Beyond this, my knowledge of things trails off -
the Geenway Foundation has been instrumental in all of this so far, and I assume they plan to continue their work. It's been a few years since I've combed through their materials though, and the last time I did, didn't find anything about Auraria or long-term plans of any kind beyond plans for River North.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

The initial concept only includes the parking lots. Which do not even reach the river. The only part along the river that's shown in this plan is squeezed next to the area currently occupied by the waste-of-space French garden Mayor Webb built.

Looks like we posted at the same time. This is a bit of a relief - obviously 20+ years is a long time away for any firm plans for the full site anyway.

Those "gardens" are completely orphaned in the greenway right now. I do like the idea of using part of the park as a demonstration space for the Denver Botanic Gardens though. Especially given the way that the namesake park was turned into an asphalt wasteland when it moved to this location. If it were a little nicer, and surrounded by a busy urban neighborhood, I bet there would be more interest in a nice public flower garden. The modern one in Millennium Park in Chicago is great.

[CONative]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Next to the soccer stadium would be a great location assuming they (Kroenke) own or acquired more land than presently used for the soccer stadium. It's about the only spot for being centrally located and would have good access from Central Park Blvd and Quebec St (via I-70). Otherwise it's off to Aurora near the budding aerotropolis. Not sure Kroenke has any interest in an Amusement Park but if whoever bought the surrounding land then sure, why not?

Probably not a good idea to put this right next to (across the street) from 2 Stapleton neighborhoods -- for multiple reasons. Don't think there is enough room for an amusment park and needed parking on top of what is already in place there anyway. Put it way out there -- like every other major city has with their amusement parks.

[SnyderBock]

I think Elitches should be relocated onto the hogbacks.

[DenvertoLA]

Also, all that land by 🞵🞵🞵🞵 Sporting Goods park is a National Wildlife Refuge. There is no way the Feds will give up that so we can have a theme park near the city.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

I think Elitches should be relocated onto the hogbacks.

I actually completely agree. I've even found a perfect site - the active quarry site right south of the old Heritage Square and north of the I-70 exit (near where everybody carpools to ski, and near Red Rocks). Wouldn't even be the first theme park located at an old quarry - and the hillsides could provide for some unique attractions. Only trouble is that it will probably remain an active quarry for at least several more decades, I'd assume.

[ddvmke]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Next to the soccer stadium would be a great location assuming they (Kroenke) own or acquired more land than presently used for the soccer stadium. It's about the only spot for being centrally located and would have good access from Central Park Blvd and Quebec St (via I-70). Otherwise it's off to Aurora near the budding aerotropolis. Not sure Kroenke has any interest in an Amusement Park but if whoever bought the surrounding land then sure, why not?

I'd be fine with a direct swap, soccer stadium to CPV and Elitch's out to Stapleton. Could even build it onto the lightrail stop similar to Aviva Stadium in Dublin. Ahhh...wishful thinking for a good gameday atmosphere.

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

Also, all that land by 🞵🞵🞵🞵 Sporting Goods park is a National Wildlife Refuge. There is no way the Feds will give up that so we can have a theme park near the city.

I think the reference was to this piece of land, which, iirc, is owned by Kroenke (USPS site might be Forest City, I can't remember). Either way, that part is still private land.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by jbssfelix

I think the reference was to this piece of land, which, iirc, is owned by Kroenke (USPS site might be Forest City, I can't remember). Either way, that part is still private land.

USPS owns their own land there (considered unincorporated Adams County), as does Denver Water just to the south of the USPS facility. This nicely splits the two parcels that Kreonke owns and neither one is large enough to support an amusement park that's even the size of the current Elitch's, let alone a large one that would a larger regional draw. Commerce City owns some larger parcels to the north and northwest of 🞵🞵🞵🞵's (and all of the soccer fields) and they would probably 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 themselves to Kroenke for the right price- maybe a dozen tacos and a case of beer?

I do think that anything along 56th for Elitch's might be a non-starter as they would be opening themselves up to holy hell from the yuppies moving to north Stapleton in droves. Yuppies with lot's of disposable income, lawyers, and a very strong desire to preserve their neighborhood.