Winnipeg | Downtown | True North Square | U/C

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Totally. I’d take three eight storey buildings over one 24 storey any day.

Negotiate harder!

"4 eight storey buildings!!"

Originally Posted by GlassCity

There is only so much growth to go around, and Edmonton has much more of it than Winnipeg does. The choice isn't filling in downtown with 5 story buildings or 30 story buildings - it's having more of downtown filled in with 5 story buildings, or a little bit of downtown with 30 story buildings and the rest surface parking. The second might help Winnipeg compete better in the Great Canadian Skyline Thread, but the first is what will actually make downtown a more popular and vibrant area.

No one's saying Winnipeg shouldn't be building towers at Edmonton's pace, but the point is, we can't. The demand just isn't there. So what is the best way to accommodate the demand that we do have? That's the question.

This right here.

That said, we're speaking from a civic perspective. From a private perspective, a developer will always seek the highest and best use, usually finding a comfort threshold intersecting with highest density, risk, and reward.

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

It all comes down to economics and vision, both of which are lacking in Winnipeg.

True.... but...

You can't necessarily force the first, even if you can massage the second.

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Yes, and over 100 years ago the city was booming. Clinging to the development of the Forks, really? Let's think now. CMHR is not much of an achievement in my eyes, as it has not resulted in any additional developments.

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

The point is that we should not argue today's lack of development in Winnipeg by countering with developments decades old. Let's also focus on private $$$, not massive public $$$.

Well, I do agree with both of these.

However, the forks as a whole and marketplace have done a fantastic job of engaging the consumer and pedestrian. The city needs to strive for this but the problem is that while Winnipeggers are behind the time recognizing their own city's potential, a lot of major national tenants are further back in the stone ages.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

While this can sometimes be true, it's not really where I was going with my comment. I'm just saying there's more to a pleasant urban experience than if the buildings look good or not - there has to be enough of them for that experience to actually feel lively, and well, urban.

You're not wrong, but that lively feeling ultimately comes from people... the sheer mass of people masks visually lacking buildings. In Winnipeg, that won't be hidden, so we gotta get it right when we have the chance.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

This right here.

That said, we're speaking from a civic perspective. From a private perspective, a developer will always seek the highest and best use, usually finding a comfort threshold intersecting with highest density, risk, and reward.

...

You're not wrong, but that lively feeling ultimately comes from people... the sheer mass of people masks visually lacking buildings. In Winnipeg, that won't be hidden, so we gotta get it right when we have the chance.

That's what zoning and urban design guidelines are for

...

For sure, and I think a shorter but more filled-out downtown would attract more people than a taller but sparse downtown. The average person doesn't care how tall the buildings are above them - a consistent and engaging streetscape is what matters.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by esquire

What difference does it make to me whether the city is booming or not?

It simply does not. I was hoping we have all learnt by now that he will never be satisfied with anything that happens in this city, ever; perpetual pessimist.

It will never end with him.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Brizzy82

I have never noticed that CUC building before. Driven past it a thousand times I guess but have never paid it attention. I would have bet money that WASN’T a Wpg building if not for the other buildings in the pic. I’m so floored by this.

This isn't surprising. Since Donald is a one-way, typically this building is only seen from the north (while driving). The north facade is pretty nondescript, and partially obscured by the more interesting Masonic Temple. If you're on Portage, you probably wouldn't notice it behind MEC.

[bomberjet]

Who cares what Edmonton does. Let them build palaces to their sports god and wallow in the pity of their defeats.

[robertocarlos]

Do people know about the closure of Hargrave tomorrow?

Hargrave will be completely closed to THROUGH traffic due to True North Square construction. Access to the parkades on the east side of Hargrave will be maintained. The street will reopen daily to through traffic after 3:00 p.m. daily. - City lane closures.

And if you park at the old Eaton's parkade I think you have to turn right at Portage and Hargrave.

[Biff]

...next

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

That's what zoning and urban design guidelines are for

...

For sure, and I think a shorter but more filled-out downtown would attract more people than a taller but sparse downtown. The average person doesn't care how tall the buildings are above them - a consistent and engaging streetscape is what matters.

Except guidelines will never, nor should be that strict, because at that point you're taking the favourable economics right out of the site. Guidelines should certainly ensure exteriors and ground level storefronts favour the neighbourhood, but capping height is dangerous. As soon as you put a cap on height in a downtown, the developer may struggle to overcome their land costs, especially considering Winnipeg's high construction costs, eventually driving someone's private land value down. I like a cohesive downtown, but I would consider that almost criminal if the city decided to suddenly cap height and reduce someone's net worth. My libertarian side is kicking in.

That's why a majority of the smaller buidlings in downtown Toronto, for example old. Anything new has to build high to make money. Maybe not AS high in Winnipeg, but it's still a dangerous game to limit someone's profitability, because that sends them to other markets.

Some land in downtown Winnipeg might still be cheap enough, but perhaps not in the best locations. It's hard to gauge. Maybe 10-15 storeys is still a financial sweet spot downtown but I have my guard up against that...

[Urban recluse]

Originally Posted by Pinus

It simply does not. I was hoping we have all learnt by now that he will never be satisfied with anything that happens in this city, ever; perpetual pessimist.

It will never end with him.

— is happening??? Not a whole heck of a lot. We are witnessing a city half the size of Winnipeg (Halifax) putting Winnipeg to shame.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by robertocarlos

Do people know about the closure of Hargrave tomorrow?

Hargrave will be completely closed to THROUGH traffic due to True North Square construction. Access to the parkades on the east side of Hargrave will be maintained. The street will reopen daily to through traffic after 3:00 p.m. daily. - City lane closures.

And if you park at the old Eaton's parkade I think you have to turn right at Portage and Hargrave.

Posted on March 2nd

Memo out today regarding street access on Hargrave due to overhead constuction

Due to construction preparations for the new skywalk that will be built connecting cityplace to the new True North Square office tower, a section of Hargrave Street, south of Graham Avenue will be closed from Thursday, March 8th to Friday, March 23rd (with the exception of weekends) between the hours of 5:00 a.m. and 3:00 p.m. After 3:00 pm, normal traffic routes will be reinstated.

Access to the cityplace parkades will continue to be available during construction. However, parkers will need to make the following adjustments between the closure hours:

• Those who park in cityplace (Lot 4) will enter as usual but will need to exit south onto Hargrave.
• Employees who park in the seven storey parkade north of Graham Avenue (Lot 1), will need to access the lot by driving east on Portage and south onto Hargrave.
Impark and PCL Customer Service Representatives will also be assisting parkers during this transition.

I guess that PCL Customer Service Representatives are the fancy name for flag persons.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Except guidelines will never, nor should be that strict, because at that point you're taking the favourable economics right out of the site. Guidelines should certainly ensure exteriors and ground level storefronts favour the neighbourhood, but capping height is dangerous. As soon as you put a cap on height in a downtown, the developer may struggle to overcome their land costs, especially considering Winnipeg's high construction costs, eventually driving someone's private land value down. I like a cohesive downtown, but I would consider that almost criminal if the city decided to suddenly cap height and reduce someone's net worth. My libertarian side is kicking in.

That's why a majority of the smaller buidlings in downtown Toronto, for example old. Anything new has to build high to make money. Maybe not AS high in Winnipeg, but it's still a dangerous game to limit someone's profitability, because that sends them to other markets.

Some land in downtown Winnipeg might still be cheap enough, but perhaps not in the best locations. It's hard to gauge. Maybe 10-15 storeys is still a financial sweet spot downtown but I have my guard up against that...

This may or may not be true. I am not nearly familiar enough with the economics of downtown Winnipeg to know if shorter buildings make economic sense or not. Obviously any regulatory proposal would have to take this into account.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

— is happening??? Not a whole heck of a lot. We are witnessing a city half the size of Winnipeg (Halifax) putting Winnipeg to shame.

Potentially by the end of 2019, 8 of the 20 (40%) tallest buildings in Winnipeg will have been built in the last 10 years.

1-Hydro building
2-TNS Tower 2
3-Heritage Landing
4-D Condo
5-TNS Tower 1
6-TNS/Sutton place Hotel
7-TNS/Sutton Place Residence
8-300 Main

[bomberjet]

I find these discussions, what's the word, ridiculous maybe.
WHY IS NOTHIGN HAPPENING IN WINNIPEG?!?!?! Okay, go spend your money and do something. No? Okay what do you propose? Nothing? Dictating how the people with money spend it to appease you?

Move to Halifax. Please.

[bomberjet]

To confirm PCL customer service rep is the flagperson in the green jump suit.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

— is happening??? Not a whole heck of a lot. We are witnessing a city half the size of Winnipeg (Halifax) putting Winnipeg to shame.

So I guess a new tallest (300 Main) and the largest development in the history of downtown Winnipeg (TNS) adds up to "not a whole heck of a lot"......

[Brizzy82]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I find these discussions, what's the word, ridiculous maybe.
WHY IS NOTHIGN HAPPENING IN WINNIPEG?!?!?! Okay, go spend your money and do something. No? Okay what do you propose? Nothing? Dictating how the people with money spend it to appease you?

Move to Halifax. Please.

Thank you.

I have no idea why the same poster brings up Halifax, Hamilton, and Edmonton every 3rd page. We get it, move along.

[Biff]

From Bent Bellamy Twitter (https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy)

Seems like Halifax is down 34.2% (to $55.3 M), Hamilton is down 48.7% (to $105 M) and Winnipeg is down 25.7% (to $165 M) from 2017 in building permits. Doesn't really seem like Halifax or Hamilton is killing us

[buzzg]

I'm not an expert in the matter but I'd wager January is a horrible month to use as "evidence" in Canada. It's probably extremely volatile YoY as there probably isn't many permits issue in January because of... you know... winter.

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I'm not an expert in the matter but I'd wager January is a horrible month to use as "evidence" in Canada. It's probably extremely volatile YoY as there probably isn't many permits issue in January because of... you know... winter.

Yyes no no. Most larger builds need to get their permits in early. As you want to break ground come spring. Not sit and wait around.

On the flip side with your theory. Then Winnipeg being the coldest of those cities still is out permitting them when Your theory it shouldn’t.

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by Biff

From Bent Bellamy Twitter (https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy)

Seems like Halifax is down 34.2% (to $55.3 M), Hamilton is down 48.7% (to $105 M) and Winnipeg is down 25.7% (to $165 M) from 2017 in building permits. Doesn't really seem like Halifax or Hamilton is killing us

alright everybody! off the Halifax bandwagon and onto the St. John's bandwagon!!!!!!!!