Western Expresso

[rrskylar]

https://discover.rbcroyalbank.com/top-ten-most-valuable-degrees-in-canada/

In a couple fields you can make almost as much as members of the WPS or WFPS of course with the WPS you need the hard to achieve Arts Degree and with the WFPS the anyone who applies gets in ACU Fire College eight month Diploma!

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

https://discover.rbcroyalbank.com/top-ten-most-valuable-degrees-in-canada/

In a couple fields you can make almost as much as members of the WPS or WFPS of course with the WPS you need the hard to achieve Arts Degree and with the WFPS the anyone who applies gets in ACU Fire College eight month Diploma!

Why do people begrudge public servants earning $60 or $70,000 per year? That is the minimum income necessary to have even a remotely middle class standard of living, that is, to own a modest home, to have a vehicle, to be able to put a little bit away for a rainy day, kids' education or retirement and to take at least one holiday per year so these winters don't drive one utterly over the deep end.

Adjusted for inflation, wages for the vast majority haven't budged for over 4 decades, for many, particularly blue collar men, they have declined. That trend needs to be reversed, not encouraged by suggesting everyone should work for subsistence wages except those in the top 5 or 10%. That economic model is not sustainable if one wants Canada to remain a first world country.

I do agree that the percentage of the city's budget spent on police and fire services is far too high, but what has to be cut is not base wages but unnecessary and wasteful spending on infrastructure, equipment and overtime.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Why do people begrudge public servants earning $60 or $70,000 per year? That is the minimum income necessary to have even a remotely middle class standard of living, that is, to own a modest home, to have a vehicle, to be able to put a little bit away for a rainy day, kids' education or retirement and to take at least one holiday per year so these winters don't drive one utterly over the deep end.

Adjusted for inflation, wages for the vast majority haven't budged for over 4 decades, for many, particularly blue collar men, they have declined. That trend needs to be reversed, not encouraged by suggesting everyone should work for subsistence wages except those in the top 5 or 10%. That economic model is not sustainable if one wants Canada to remain a first world country.

I do agree that the percentage of the city's budget spent on police and fire services is far too high, but what has to be cut is not base wages but unnecessary and wasteful spending on infrastructure, equipment and overtime.

People should be paid the worth of the job they are in. The determining factor of the worth of a position in a free market world is supply and demand. The supply of people qualified enough and willing to do the jobs of most public service positions are very high. It would stand to reason that you would still be able to fill all positions if wages were lower. If that's the case, why raise wages when you don't have too.

I don't understand the theory that people deserve a better wage just because they have worked for an extended period of time or because the world around them is increasing quicker then them. I don't feel anyone is entitled to a Caribbean vacation just because they live somewhere they don't enjoy half the year.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by dmacc

People should be paid the worth of the job they are in. The determining factor of the worth of a position in a free market world is supply and demand. The supply of people qualified enough and willing to do the jobs of most public service positions are very high. It would stand to reason that you would still be able to fill all positions if wages were lower. If that's the case, why raise wages when you don't have too.

I don't understand the theory that people deserve a better wage just because they have worked for an extended period of time or because the world around them is increasing quicker then them. I don't feel anyone is entitled to a Caribbean vacation just because they live somewhere they don't enjoy half the year.

I have no desire to return to Victorian social conditions. You might be okay with Canada playing on a level playing field with Indonesia or Brazil, but I'm not.

A strict supply and demand labour market is completely antithetical to all of the gains made by labour and the growth of the middle class starting in the late 19th century, many of which have already been whittled away. The level of inequality in this country has already become appalling.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I have no desire to return to Victorian social conditions. You might be okay with Canada playing on a level playing field with Indonesia or Brazil, but I'm not.

A strict supply and demand labour market is completely antithetical to all of the gains made by labour and the growth of the middle class starting in the late 19th century, many of which have already been whittled away. The level of inequality in this country has already become appalling.

A lot of the gains labour has made over the last decade or two have come at the expense of governments living beyond they're means and running continual deficits. What labour needs to understand is that if you want a better wage maybe you should educate yourself and learn something new that make you worth the extra wage. You don't just deserve $70,000 a year because you were born in Canada. You need to go to school, work hard, be intelligent, have some sort of skill that make you worth the wage you want. Even then, sometimes live deals you cards that prevent you from achieving what you wanted. It's not the world job to ensure you still get what you want but rather an unfortunate circumstance that no one but yourself has to live with.

Sorry, I know that comes across cold and curmudgeony and like an old man ranting on his porch.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by dmacc

A lot of the gains labour has made over the last decade or two have come at the expense of governments living beyond they're means and running continual deficits. What labour needs to understand is that if you want a better wage maybe you should educate yourself and learn something new that make you worth the extra wage. You don't just deserve $70,000 a year because you were born in Canada. You need to go to school, work hard, be intelligent, have some sort of skill that make you worth the wage you want. Even then, sometimes live deals you cards that prevent you from achieving what you wanted. It's not the world job to ensure you still get what you want but rather an unfortunate circumstance that no one but yourself has to live with.

Sorry, I know that comes across cold and curmudgeony and like an old man ranting on his porch.

Labour has made NO gains over the last decade or two, in fact it has made no gains for over forty years. ZERO. Virtually all of new wealth creation since the early 80s has accrued to the top 1%. Much of the working class has slipped into destitution floating along by predatory payday loans and a very good chunk of the middle class has disappeared.

Government deficits, which were eliminated for a period of time in the earlier 2000s in both Canada and the US, are the result of privatization of profits and socialization of losses, not to public sector wages.

[Authentic_City]

^The notion that there are unlimited pools of labour ready to fill civil service jobs at low wages is overly simplistic and quite naive in fact. Let's set aside the issue of corruption among police forces with low wages (e.g. New Orleans). Consider that the RCMP, for example, is finding it very hard to find enough recruits. The RCMP has a very nice salary and benefit package. Where are all the folks lining up in the imagined supply and demand universe to take these well paying jobs? Recruits still have to meet basic standards for physical fitness and be able to pass a test. Should we lower these standards to get employees willing to work for lower wages?

Also consider that some municipal police forces in cities like Edmonton are paying signing bonuses to get police to move there (e.g. transferring laterally from other police services). Heck, cities like Calgary had recruiting drives in the UK to bring over experienced officers. Again, supply and demand seems to suggest that there are not enough qualified applicants for these positions - maybe even worldwide. Sure, WPS pays a high salary, but it is not out of line with other police services in Canada. A recent McLean's article claimed that 40% of Windsor, ON police officers were earning more than $100,000. Firefighters are not far off from this in many Canadian jurisdictions.

There may be many people who would like to have jobs in the civil service or emergency services, but I don't want poorly paid, inexperienced or unqualified people running the city or policing the streets. Like Curmudgeon says, we need to better manage overtime and I would add that perhaps we should look at using technology and civilian police employees to reduce the overall number of police officers. Winnipeg's solution for too long has been to keep hiring more officers.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Why do people begrudge public servants earning $60 or $70,000 per year? That is the minimum income necessary to have even a remotely middle class standard of living, that is, to own a modest home, to have a vehicle, to be able to put a little bit away for a rainy day, kids' education or retirement and to take at least one holiday per year so these winters don't drive one utterly over the deep end.

Adjusted for inflation, wages for the vast majority haven't budged for over 4 decades, for many, particularly blue collar men, they have declined. That trend needs to be reversed, not encouraged by suggesting everyone should work for subsistence wages except those in the top 5 or 10%. That economic model is not sustainable if one wants Canada to remain a first world country.

I do agree that the percentage of the city's budget spent on police and fire services is far too high, but what has to be cut is not base wages but unnecessary and wasteful spending on infrastructure, equipment and overtime.

I don't begrudge anyone making what they should with the appropriate academic background or skill set, what I have a problem with are firefighters making the same as nurses, engineers,teachers, pharmacists and other educated people where there are tough entrance requirements. A firefighter making $100K plus with an eight month fire school diploma is ridiculous.

There is a problem when the WPS and WFPS services eat up nearly half the city budget, who gets 7-9% pay increases every five years?

There is no shortage of qualified applicants for both the WPS and WFPS service and the play should reflect that, to have them making more than a pharmacist lets says, any idea how hard it is to even get into the pharmacy program!

[Authentic_City]

^ The myth that hard work, intelligence, ability etc. solely determine a person's economic well-being has been empirically debunked. Social capital, family wealth and social standing are better predictors of economic success of children. Some the dimmest and laziest people I went to highschool with had wealthy parents and are doing just fine today because they were set up in the family business or some other venture bankrolled by the parents.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

There is no shortage of qualified applicants for both the WPS and WFPS

Sorry, but not true. Sure, there is no shortage of folks who want these jobs, but not all applicants are qualified. But hey, if you want to include those who can't pass the test, don't meet physical fitness requirements, don't pass the background checks, you could build yourself a nice little police force.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

What you are suggesting is impractical and nonsensical. There are many people with an education out there barely making it by, working minimum wage jobs. There just isn't enough good-paying jobs out there in this world of automation, globalization, consolidation and vertical integration. Also, as Authentic_City has alluded to, you can't fit square pegs in round holes. There are going to be many people out there who just aren't fit for the few good paying jobs that are available.

You're right, there are only so many good paying jobs available. It is your job as an individual to make yourself the best version of whatever the employer requires to ensure you obtain that job and wage that you want. If you are unable to accomplish that then you will not obtain the wage that you feel you want or are worth.

I don't understand the problem with that? I think people have it wrong. It is everyone responsibility to push society forward by rewarding the best with the best, not holding them back to help help those that can't keep up.

Progress is the only thing society should be concerned with. Improving technology, being less of a burden on the planet, helping Musk get to Mars, figuring out how to create live on a dead planet, discovering all the universe has to offer.

But no, Curmudeon needs his trip to Turk and Caicos because Winnipeg is cold in the winter.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Sorry, but not true. Sure, there is no shortage of folks who want these jobs, but not all applicants are qualified. But hey, if you want to include those who can't pass the test, don't meet physical fitness requirements, don't pass the background checks, you could build yourself a nice little police force.

Plenty of qualified worthy candidates are passed over every year at both the WPS and WFPS, with details of their salaries and benefits public knowledge don't think for minute that they couldn't find more than enough qualified applicants! Right now it's like winning a lottery getting into either service, of course a friend or family member on either service really helps!

It's sad that here in Winnipeg that the WPS and WFPS are looked at as plum jobs it's an overall sign that maybe the economy here isn't as robust as many think especially when most are employed by one level of govt. or another directly or indirectly! There isn't really a lot of wealth creation here despite what some believe!

The role of govt. needs to be to facilitate growth and jobs in the private sector and not to have everyone employed in the public sector as the past NDP govt. was trying to do!~

[dmacc]

Also, you who complain about the 1% getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Try to look a little internally, what are you willing to give up to help those who are struggling? Would you give up a trip to Turks and Caicos to help? In many cases most of you are being hypocritical because YOU are the global 1%.

https://www.diygenius.com/the-global-inequality-problem/

[Authentic_City]

^Sorry, but simply saying something doesn't make it true. I've heard lots of stories of supposedly qualified people unable to get on with the WPS, but then it turns out there is a reason they are passed over. If they want to be a cop so badly, they could easily move to Edmonton, Calgary, RCMP, etc. and get on. If they are truly qualified. There is a shortage of qualified recruits nationally.

Also, it's not just Winnipeg that pays police like this. It's nationwide. So how is this a poor reflection on Winnipeg's economy? Cops in Edmonton and Calgary earn more. It's like winning the lottery in any Canadian city.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

^Sorry, but simply saying something doesn't make it true. I've heard lots of stories of supposedly qualified people unable to get on with the WPS, but then it turns out there is a reason they are passed over. If they want to be a cop so badly, they could easily move to Edmonton, Calgary, RCMP, etc. and get on. If they are truly qualified. There is a shortage of qualified recruits nationally.

Also, it's not just Winnipeg that pays police like this. It's nationwide. So how is this a poor reflection on Winnipeg's economy? Cops in Edmonton and Calgary earn more. It's like winning the lottery in any Canadian city.

You're contradicting yourself, you say there is a shortage of qualified recruits (which there isn't) and they you say it's like winning a lottery in any Canadian city ( as in so many recruits to choose from)

Actually getting onto the police force in Calgary or Edmonton is no easier than here, that's another myth. Sure Calgary and Edmonton hire from outside their jurisdictions but they want trained police officers looking to move from other locales which saves them the expense of training!

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

^ The myth that hard work, intelligence, ability etc. solely determine a person's economic well-being has been empirically debunked. Social capital, family wealth and social standing are better predictors of economic success of children. Some the dimmest and laziest people I went to highschool with had wealthy parents and are doing just fine today because they were set up in the family business or some other venture bankrolled by the parents.

And what if you're just not naturally intelligent? Should you be subjected to a lifetime of poverty for that? Not everyone has the capacity to work in STEM. Everyone that contributes something to society should at least be able to get by. After that, the more skilled positions can earn much more obviously, but we should still work towards a floor that somewhat resembles a decent life, not hardship.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by dmacc

You're right, there are only so many good paying jobs available. It is your job as an individual to make yourself the best version of whatever the employer requires to ensure you obtain that job and wage that you want. If you are unable to accomplish that then you will not obtain the wage that you feel you want or are worth.

I don't understand the problem with that? I think people have it wrong. It is everyone responsibility to push society forward by rewarding the best with the best, not holding them back to help help those that can't keep up.

Progress is the only thing society should be concerned with. Improving technology, being less of a burden on the planet, helping Musk get to Mars, figuring out how to create live on a dead planet, discovering all the universe has to offer.

But no, Curmudeon needs his trip to Turk and Caicos because Winnipeg is cold in the winter.

I would think society should be more concerned with ensuring the well-being of everyone within it before getting to Mars.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I would think society should be more concerned with ensuring the well-being of everyone within it before getting to Mars.

Innovations in the space industry have led to countless improvements in the well being of people with medical advancements.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/nasa-inventions/nasa-breakthroughs-in-medicine.htm

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Innovations in the space industry have led to countless improvements in the well being of people with medical advancements.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/nasa-inventions/nasa-breakthroughs-in-medicine.htm

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html

Maybe, but I think you know that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not talking in absolutes. Space exploration is cool and all, but innovation is only useful when its benefits are accessible to all.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Maybe, but I think you know that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not talking in absolutes. Space exploration is cool and all, but innovation is only useful when its benefits are accessible to all.

What are you willing to give up to ensure there is funding for people to access to everything you do? Will you give up your pension? Pay more in taxes? give up property?

Things become more accessible when they become commodities, before that only people of a certain means can afford, until a new innovation comes along to lower the cost.