Halifax Stadium Discussion

[c-way-dude]

http://www.620ckrm.com/2018/02/27/reginas-gary-drummond-on-the-cfl-in-halifax/

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

http://www.620ckrm.com/2018/02/27/reginas-gary-drummond-on-the-cfl-in-halifax/

Is moving from an ownership interest in an NHL franchise to an ownership interest in a CFL franchise a move up or a move down, and how wealthy is he ?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Is moving from an ownership interest in an NHL franchise to an ownership interest in a CFL franchise a move up or a move down, and how wealthy is he ?

You move from around a 60 million/yr payroll to 5 million (quick comment, going from memory).

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Yes, it is not soccer; and games I attended several decades ago in Britain were in stadia built with private money.
The relatively new ground at Arsenal was built with club money and not a penny from taxpayers. A few miles away the new Tottenham stadium will cost circa $1.3 billion and not one cent of public money.
Liverpool expansion all with private money and Old Trafford all private money. $200 million may buy 2 decent players in the Premier League and wages over 5 years would be another $100 million. All that TV money from world broadcast rights is flowing into player pockets
Surely you can post, or make an attempt to post, a rational argument for public money being put into a private sports organisation.

Colin, you might want to fact check some of those comments, Tottenhiem is getting public support. It's similar to the public support we expect here.

"Tottenham had experienced problems in getting funding from the Mayor's office and the local council to regenerate the area around the proposed new stadium, but that obstacle has been overcome with the announcement of a £27million support project.

Haringey council will invest £9 million towards new and improved public spaces around the stadium and Johnson has committed £18 million to the regeneration of north Tottenham."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footbal...ium-funding-agreement.html#ixzz58X9LwV9N

Liverpool is also getting contributions from its levels of government

"We will provide as much support as we can, as we did with Liverpool when they looked to rebuild their main stand.

"Everton’s new stadium has arguably greater potential in its impact to regenerate what is a key part of North Liverpool.

"As a council we’ve already begun investing in the surrounding area – with millions in improving the road infrastructure and a masterplan for the north docks running up to the city centre to create a new creative district."

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-new-stadium-not-sole-12693233

The government should help this or loose the opportunity to finally get this done. Any expansions later on can be leveraged against the franchise but need to get a football and soccer team in there to start.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Is moving from an ownership interest in an NHL franchise to an ownership interest in a CFL franchise a move up or a move down, and how wealthy is he ?

The Las Vegas NHL expansion franchise cost $500 million. My guess is a CFL expansion franchise will cost $10-$12 million.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

The Las Vegas NHL expansion franchise cost $500 million. My guess is a CFL expansion franchise will cost $10-$12 million.

The league learned its lesson with Ottawa on how to do an expansion that created a valuable franchise and not handcuffing it from the get go. It didn't hurt that the ownership group had a few clues on how to run a business.

I understand John Ruddy of the RBs and Wayne Morsky of the Riders are taking an active role in helping this project. I am also to understand that LeBlanc/Drummond and Bowser et al were two separate groups interested in a franchise that got together. In the town hall, Bowser mentioned (not by name) that there were other local investors aside from the three who are usually mentioned.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by elly63

The league learned its lesson with Ottawa on how to do an expansion that created a valuable franchise and not handcuffing it from the get go. It didn't hurt that the ownership group had a few clues on how to run a business.

I understand John Ruddy of the RBs and Wayne Morsky of the Riders are taking an active role in helping this project. I am also to understand that LeBlanc/Drummond and Bowser et al were two separate groups interested in a franchise that got together. In the town hall, Bowser mentioned (not by name) that there were other local investors aside from the three who are usually mentioned.

My guess is that Bowser was a key member of the consortium led by Dan Gardner that met with Mayor Savage and former CFL Commissioner Jeffrey Orridge back in 2016.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

My guess is that Bowser was a key member of the consortium led by Dan Gardner that met with Mayor Savage and former CFL Commissioner Jeffrey Orridge back in 2016.

Don Gardiner - Born entrepreneur took talent from NB to NS
Ian Fairclough Chronicle Herald September 25, 2011

Field of dreams: Businessman floats idea of private funds to build outdoor Halifax stadium
Mayor Mike Savage said he'd welcome private investment, seating would be at about 20,000.
Yvette d'Entremont Metro May 18 2016

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Colin, you might want to fact check some of those comments, Tottenhiem is getting public support. It's similar to the public support we expect here.

"Tottenham had experienced problems in getting funding from the Mayor's office and the local council to regenerate the area around the proposed new stadium, but that obstacle has been overcome with the announcement of a £27million support project.

Haringey council will invest £9 million towards new and improved public spaces around the stadium and Johnson has committed £18 million to the regeneration of north Tottenham."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footbal...ium-funding-agreement.html#ixzz58X9LwV9N

Liverpool is also getting contributions from its levels of government

"We will provide as much support as we can, as we did with Liverpool when they looked to rebuild their main stand.

"Everton’s new stadium has arguably greater potential in its impact to regenerate what is a key part of North Liverpool.

"As a council we’ve already begun investing in the surrounding area – with millions in improving the road infrastructure and a masterplan for the north docks running up to the city centre to create a new creative district."

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-new-stadium-not-sole-12693233

The government should help this or loose the opportunity to finally get this done. Any expansions later on can be leveraged against the franchise but need to get a football and soccer team in there to start.

London is spending money on public spaces and a subway station, none of which goes into the club or benefits the club. I know what the area was like in 1967 and it is in a densely populated area - check it out on Google maps
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/White+H...d992812cd2!8m2!3d51.6032123!4d-0.0657389
And if I accept your argument I must point out that the council is putting in $1 for every $39 spent by the club. If Leblanc et al want a $50,000,000 stadium I'll be quite happy to see HRM spent $2,000,000 on public improvements to transit.
The Mayor of Liverpool is an Everton supporter.
Liverpool council bought up old terrace houses around Anfield. The area was in need of redevelopment to improve living conditions.
Most stadia in UK are in the middle of a town and pay property taxes.

[TheNovaScotian]

Beyond whatever straws your grasping at, after conversion the city council is spending $47.8 million cad to help build a stadium in Tottenhiem.
Colin, I know you don't accept conflicting opinions well but it's a fact public money does go into stadium projects around the world.
You don't have to accept facts for them to still be legitimate, many people think climate change is a hoax it still doesn't stop the planet from changing.
This isn't an argument, mostly just a statement of facts to keep the discussion honest.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Beyond whatever straws your grasping at, after conversion the city council is spending $47.8 million cad to help build a stadium in Tottenhiem.
Colin, I know you don't accept conflicting opinions well but it's a fact public money does go into stadium projects around the world.
You don't have to accept facts for them to still be legitimate, many people think climate change is a hoax it still doesn't stop the planet from changing.
This isn't an argument, mostly just a statement of facts to keep the discussion honest.

Yes, I know public money goes into stadia around the world, but rarely in small cities such as Halifax.
Look around the EPL and you will find few stadia built with public money.
Improving public transit is not putting money into a Tottenham stadium, it is putting money into a public space which has no impact on the club other than making the streetscape nice. And the NFL wants to expand into Europe and use the Tottenham stadium
The Huddersfield stadium was built with club money from the sale of the old ground which is now a shopping mall. The club survives on cash from the owner and a share of TV broadcast money.
W Ham got the Olympic stadium for a pittance, as did Man City - both deals were/are a disgrace as it gives each team a financial benefit.
Arsenal owned land around Highbury, developed expensive residential properties and paid cash from internally generated income and at the same time improved the team - not a penny of public money. Of course it helps that the EPL is the biggest sports franchise in the world.
And how much should HRM put into a stadium and what conditions should HRM attach to such an 'investment' ?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

And how much should HRM put into a stadium and what conditions should HRM attach to such an 'investment'?

As much as the local citizenry is willing to bear. If they want to pay for everything, great, if they want to pay for nothing that's great too.

Please, enough of the auld country examples, they hold no relevance here and to this discourse. Different attitudes towards funding different sports that have different relevance to each market.

[ILoveHalifax]

A small portion of the citizenry actually use the library, a small portion of the citizenry use the bike lanes. I suggest a much larger portion of the citizenry will attend the games and/or watch them on TV and an even greater portion of the citizenry will enjoy the CIVIC PRIDE that comes with sports teams. People will fly in to attend games from all over the continent, as well as the national media coverage that promotes the city. I will watch the games from my home in Florida.
The media needs to STOP giving free coverage to the NAYSAYERS and get behind the majority who want a national sports team.
Any money paid to build a stadium will come back over and over. It is time to bite the bullet, build the stadium and take a place on the national stage.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

A small portion of the citizenry actually use the library, a small portion of the citizenry use the bike lanes. I suggest a much larger portion of the citizenry will attend the games and/or watch them on TV and an even greater portion of the citizenry will enjoy the CIVIC PRIDE that comes with sports teams.

This is all true, especially your first sentence.

[dtown]

It just seems inevitable a stadium will be built in Halifax one day. It has been talked about for years and years and every other city of a similar population on the continent has something like this. With the private sector leading the cause, and way the city is growing there has never been a better time or a better deal to the city to build one. This project is long past due, and its going to happen one day so lets just do it now.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

A small portion of the citizenry actually use the library....

Funny you should mention this. I am planning a trip and stopped by the downtown library this weekend while running errands to pick up some books on potential destinations. It was packed. I had to travel a couple floors down just to find space to sit. All of the comfy seats were taken... most of the study carrels were taken... all, but two, of the computer stations were being used. It was full of people of every generation.

Eventually, I found a spot to sit and previewed some of my books. Then, I people-watched for a bit. It appears that people like the library and use it well. No one really HAS to go there, but everyone there on Saturday chose it as a destination.

Granted, the number of people using it on Saturday could not have been a huge portion of the total population, but I bet it's higher than expected for the immediate surroundings. One way the library might be different is that it's used by the public every day. I can't imagine the most multi-purpose stadium is used by the public every day... but, maybe I just don't have the right frame of reference.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Why do people always slam libraries when it comes to funding stadiums for the wealthy? New Halifax library draws 1.9 million visitors in first year

There's a reason that many citizens get ticked off at any public money going to stadia and that is because it serves the few and the wealthy instead of the all. If this is the kind of rational that stadium supporters are going to use they are going to face nothing but opposition from the other side in Halifax.

I want Halifax to build a stadium and I want them to get a CFL franchise. I supported some public funds going to Mosaic Stadium in Regina, although I think the public in Regina (of which I am one of them) is paying too much for it and there should have been more private investment. I hope Halifax does the funding more equitably. But if this is how the arguments are going to go then the stadium is going to face a very uphill battle in Halifax.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

...Granted, the number of people using it on Saturday could not have been a huge portion of the total population, but I bet it's higher than expected for the immediate surroundings. One way the library might be different is that it's used by the public every day. I can't imagine the most multi-purpose stadium is used by the public every day... but, maybe I just don't have the right frame of reference.

Yes, great points! It doesn't really matter what portion of the public is using the library at any given time if it is at or near capacity at its peak times. This means it is being used as intended (imagine if 400,000 people all showed up to use the library at the same time...).

The naysayers have to also realize that the purpose of any library, as well as being a community/cultural hub, is to allow the general population access to literature that they might not otherwise be able to access, and to encourage reading/education/gain of knowledge among all its citizenry. Again, it appears to be a success in that regard.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Yes, great points! It doesn't really matter what portion of the public is using the library at any given time if it is at or near capacity at its peak times. This means it is being used as intended (imagine if 400,000 people all showed up to use the library at the same time...).

The naysayers have to also realize that the purpose of any library, as well as being a community/cultural hub, is to allow the general population access to literature that they might not otherwise be able to access, and to encourage reading/education/gain of knowledge among all its citizenry. Again, it appears to be a success in that regard.

I have used almost all provincial and municipal libraries in central HRM.
I have used every university library in HRM except for AST.
On a per capita basis Halifax has the most library sites in Canada..
If you want the autobiography of Judge Russell, the co-founder of Dalhousie Law school, the only copy is available at Dal. A good read.
If you want to borrow The Dalhousie Journals by Marjorie Whitelaw you will find the 3 volumes are not available to borrowers except from several different locations in metro. Also a good read and a nice riposte to the 'Dalhousie was a racist' crowd.
All the libraries in HRM are one of the greatest assets of our part of the world.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

A small portion of the citizenry actually use the library,

Come on, do some basic research. 180,000 Haligonians have a library card. The library system draws 3 million visits annually, from both active borrowers and those without a card who use its services; I think it's safe to say that well over half of Haligonians use the library regularly. Would more than half of us go see a football team annually? It's not really an either-or discussion, as both a football team and a healthy library system have merits regardless, but I think the assumption that more people would make use of a stadium isn't necessarily true.