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  #841  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
CN and CP didn't just drop their passenger services because trains were gaining in popularity. (Now they are though).
Actually it was only CN who wanted to get rid of their passenger service. Via had to twist CP's arm to sell their passenger service (though I suspect that was political manoeuvring to get a better deal, as they knew Via didn't want competition).
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  #842  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Everything Via does operates at a huge loss. Corridor trains are subsidized $40 each trip (more West of Toronto).
I'm under the impression that Ottawa-Toronto-Montreal service runs near-ish the point of cost recovery while the Southwest Ontario services continue to bleed money.
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  #843  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 8:53 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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I think HFR will go a long way towards resolving VIA financing. We already see that there is pent up demand on the Toronto-Ottawa route, which will inevitably explode with faster service that HFR is promising.

As our highways get more congested, and with baby boomers retiring and wishing to travel, and as more experience rail travel overseas, rail could make a significant come back if we are willing to invest in it.

Who knows, if we can make the corridor routes substantially more popular and profitable, VIA could potentially be privatized. At that point, VIA may be able to compete very effectively with air line short haul flights and provide a hassle free alternative for many car drivers.
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  #844  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 8:56 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I'm under the impression that Ottawa-Toronto-Montreal service runs near-ish the point of cost recovery while the Southwest Ontario services continue to bleed money.
P.9 of the annual report breaks down the subsidies by region.

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/me...reports/2016/2016_Annual%20Report_EN.pdf
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  #845  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 9:26 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post

Who knows, if we can make the corridor routes substantially more popular and profitable, VIA could potentially be privatized. At that point, VIA may be able to compete very effectively with air line short haul flights and provide a hassle free alternative for many car drivers.
Hardly any train service in the world makes money.
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  #846  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 5:41 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/fleet-renewal

Happy to see this up. Sad to see that this seems rather unambitious. Only 32 trains. And 9100 seats. Doesn't seem to be geared towards expanding ridership. My take....
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  #847  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 3:07 PM
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Do any existing vehicles meet Via's stated requirements or is this another customization procurement gong show?
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  #848  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 3:16 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Do any existing vehicles meet Via's stated requirements or is this another customization procurement gong show?
I think a number of people have assumed that VIA will end up getting the same trains that Brightline uses.
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  #849  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 3:47 PM
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Happy to see this up. Sad to see that this seems rather unambitious. Only 32 trains. And 9100 seats. Doesn't seem to be geared towards expanding ridership. My take....
Comparing these numbers to their existing fleet, they are either decreasing their capacity or they are not replacing the LRCs yet, in which case there will be a significant increase in capacity.

Via currently has 40 locomotives assigned to the Corridor (19 F40s and 21 P42s), so presumably they have 40 trainsets (or close to it). If Via is only ordering 32 trainsets, that is a significant reduction.

Regarding capacity, Via has 160 cars of varying sizes with a total capacity of 9656, so 9100 is a significant decrease in total capacity.

The one number that does make sense is assuming they are purchasing 5 car trainsets, they will be purchasing 160 cars, which is the exact number they currently have. I am not sure what combination of cars results in a capacity of 9100 though. I'm guessing they have a specific make/model in mind.

My other thought is that since decisions on HFR and HSR have not been made, this order will address their immediate concerns (HEPII, Renaissance and P42 replacement), increasing capacity in the short term (when used in combination with LRCs and F40s) without making the order too big. The coaches will be most definitely be useful for HFR and the locomotives could be used on Long Haul and Regional and Remote Services (they currently have 33 F40s) if HFR is electrified.

Last edited by roger1818; Mar 2, 2018 at 4:06 PM.
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  #850  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
I think a number of people have assumed that VIA will end up getting the same trains that Brightline uses.
Yes the Siemens trainsets with Siemens Charger diesel-electric locomotives is a good option. Brightline has locomotives at both ends of their trainsets, so that would mean ordering 64 locomotives if Via doesn't use cab-cars.

Another option is the Alstom Avelia Liberty trainsets on order by Amtrak for their Acela Express service. Obviously they would need to order diesel locomotives instead of the Avelia Liberty power cars, but there are several options available for that.

Edit: I just read that Siemens Mobility and Alstom Transport announced in September 2017 a Memorandum of Understanding to merge to form Siemens Alstom: Siemens and Alstom join forces to create a European Champion in Mobility
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  #851  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 6:46 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Comparing these numbers to their existing fleet, they are either decreasing their capacity or they are not replacing the LRCs yet, in which case there will be a significant increase in capacity.

Via currently has 40 locomotives assigned to the Corridor (19 F40s and 21 P42s), so presumably they have 40 trainsets (or close to it). If Via is only ordering 32 trainsets, that is a significant reduction.

Regarding capacity, Via has 160 cars of varying sizes with a total capacity of 9656, so 9100 is a significant decrease in total capacity.

The one number that does make sense is assuming they are purchasing 5 car trainsets, they will be purchasing 160 cars, which is the exact number they currently have. I am not sure what combination of cars results in a capacity of 9100 though. I'm guessing they have a specific make/model in mind.

My other thought is that since decisions on HFR and HSR have not been made, this order will address their immediate concerns (HEPII, Renaissance and P42 replacement), increasing capacity in the short term (when used in combination with LRCs and F40s) without making the order too big. The coaches will be most definitely be useful for HFR and the locomotives could be used on Long Haul and Regional and Remote Services (they currently have 33 F40s) if HFR is electrified.
Some Renaissance is used on the "Ocean" if I am not mistaken so I don't think we can count all cars as corridor.
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  #852  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
Some Renaissance is used on the "Ocean" if I am not mistaken so I don't think we can count all cars as corridor.
True. I was only including the Corridor portion of the Renaissance fleet. Via's 2016-2020 Corporate plan says, "There are 30 Renaissance Cars assigned to the Corridor, representing the remaining 19% of the Corridor fleet."

So to summarize in Corridor service, Via has the following Cars:
LRC Coach: 71
LRC Club: 26
HEPII Economy: 23
HEPII Business: 10
Renaissance Economy: 16
Renaissance Business: 14
Total: 160

Last edited by roger1818; Mar 2, 2018 at 7:23 PM.
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  #853  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 7:26 PM
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Regarding capacity, Via has 160 cars of varying sizes with a total capacity of 9656, so 9100 is a significant decrease in total capacity.
I found one minor error. There are two classes of HEPII cars and the 10 Business class cars only have of 56 seats (not 68 like the Economy cars). This means they actually currently have a total capacity of 9536. Sill well above 9100 though.

There are also two classes of Renaissance cars, but both have 48 seats.
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  #854  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 7:30 PM
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There was the detail I needed.

I was able to make some guesses but lacked the full detail.

Now I wonder how much equipment they have sitting in reserve from past service cuts.


or

The reduction from 40 to 32 is related to being able to cycle equipment faster as they won't need to turn trains around.

or

maybe a little of both.
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  #855  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 7:58 PM
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Federal budget approves new fleet of trains for Via Rail, but dedicated tracks still under study
Via's current fleet of locomotives and passenger cars is 40 years old on average, and has been stretched beyond its normal life expectancy

Brian Platt
February 28, 2018
3:23 PM EST


OTTAWA — Via Rail is finally getting funding to replace its aging fleet on the Quebec City to Windsor line, but will have to keep waiting for a decision on whether those trains will get their own dedicated tracks through the clogged rail corridor.

Tuesday’s federal budget gives approval for procuring a new Via fleet, something the company has been requesting for years. Via’s current fleet of locomotives and passenger cars is 40 years old on average, and has been stretched beyond its normal life expectancy.

The budget doesn’t pinpoint the amount it will cost, as the new trains will be competitively tendered for bids, but the company has previously estimated it needs as much as $1.3 billion for fleet renewal.

In press materials released after the budget, Via says it expects the new trains will be operating by 2022. The company wants 32 train sets with 9,100 passenger seats, and fuel-efficient diesel engines that can be adapted for electrified rail infrastructure should it become available. The trains would be “push-pull,” meaning they wouldn’t need to turn around at stations before running in the opposite direction, as they currently do.

The call for proposals will go through the government’s public tender process and “will be open and accessible to all qualified companies,” Via says.

Transportation Minister Marc Garneau told the National Post he hopes to get the purchase through “as quickly as possible.”

But the government is still studying Via’s other big request: to build a dedicated track separate from freight rail lines. There’s no firm deadline yet for making a decision, and the budget allocates another $8 million over three years for study work.

Via has pitched the government on what it calls high-frequency rail between Toronto and Quebec City, where trains would hit top speeds of 177 km/h and avoid having to share track with freight trains, which currently get priority at bottlenecks. The project would require building sections of new track, including on a potential new route between Ottawa and Toronto that runs through Peterborough. Via estimates trip times would drop by as much as 25 per cent.

Depending on whether the track is electrified, the plan could require more than $6 billion in further funding — but it’s possible a good chunk of that might come from the private sector.

Garneau said the government needs a better idea of the business case before deciding on funding.

“Before you make a final decision you have to have some serious analysis of how many people are likely to take the train,” he said Wednesday. “Estimating that is clearly very central to our decision on that, and that’s underway at the moment … I’m not going to predict a date, but certainly we should have most of the details within a year.”

He also said there is work to do on gauging private sector interest. Via has previously suggested private pension funds could invest in the project.

But there’s also the question of what role might be played by the new Canada Infrastructure Bank, created following last year’s budget and which aims to use up to $35 billion in public funds to leverage further investment from the private sector. The bank’s mandate is to help build revenue-generating infrastructure in the public interest, and an environmentally-friendly Via line would seem to be a fit.

The bank is still in the process of getting established and hiring staff — including a CEO — but may be ready to start reviewing projects by the end of the year. Via’s proposal could face competition for funding from other rail projects such as a high-speed rail line between Toronto and Windsor, which the Ontario government is eyeing.

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/fe...l-but-dedicated-tracks-still-under-study
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  #856  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 8:04 PM
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In press materials released after the budget, Via says it expects the new trains will be operating by 2022. The company wants 32 train sets with 9,100 passenger seats, and fuel-efficient diesel engines that can be adapted for electrified rail infrastructure should it become available. The trains would be “push-pull,” meaning they wouldn’t need to turn around at stations before running in the opposite direction, as they currently do.
Interesting. The engines would likely be diesel-electric anyway, so designing in the option to add electrical pickups shouldn't be that difficult.
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  #857  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 8:28 PM
c_speed3108 c_speed3108 is offline
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Interesting comment on VIA's facebook:

Q: Is there a plan to refurbish the rest of the HEP-1 cars in service on the western long-distance trains? The coaches and Chateau sleepers are looking very threadbare

R: (from VIA) Hi: Once the new fleet is implemented, some cars from existing equipment will be modernized to be redeployed along regional routes, while others will be sold or recycled. ^NLG
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  #858  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 2:07 AM
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four years (2022), that's a long time.
So if they build the HFR, when we can expect using it? 2025?
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  #859  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 3:12 AM
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four years (2022), that's a long time.
So if they build the HFR, when we can expect using it? 2025?
I would think at least a decade in a best case scenario. Feasibility study, environmental assessment, route selection, reconstruction of track, construction of greenfield track, etc.
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  #860  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 4:00 AM
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four years (2022), that's a long time.
Not really. You can't buy these things off the shelf. The bidding process will probably take a year and then 3 years to build 64 engines and 160 cars. Brightline bought 5 4-car trainsets and it was 10 months between when the first and last was delivered (December 2016 to October 2017).

How long did it take to build the 34 trains for the Confederation line? And I would argue they are easier to build.

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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I would think at least a decade in a best case scenario. Feasibility study, environmental assessment, route selection, reconstruction of track, construction of greenfield track, etc.
That sounds reasonable to me. They might be able to do it in stages and have the upgrades between Ottawa and Montreal operational sooner though.
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