Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Dado

Ya, not so fast.

The Trillium Line crosses two other federally-regulated railways at grade. That keeps it under federal regulation.

A couple of years back when the City came out with its latest "let's spend way more money on the Trillium Line than any sane railway entity would" expansion proposal, it included a couple of high-priced grade separations at those railway crossings. At the time, I thought this was just more pointless unnecessary spending. I maintain that it is still unnecessary, but perhaps not pointless: the grade separations will mean that the Trillium Line will no longer directly interface with a federal railway.

So... had the City had not been so stupid as to design Bayview Station with a support pillar coming down on the old RoW and thus opening themselves to a challenge at the CTA by MOOSE, in a few years hence they could have been in a position to proceed with a "discontinuance" of the entire line from the Quebec shore to Bowesville Road and the Airport. There's virtually no way in Hell that MOOSE could finance an acquisition of all that with all those brand spanking new grade separations that would legitimately become part of any acquisition. The City would then be able to "buy" the line from itself and get itself out of the federal regulations that it, in its Provincial mentality, seems to despise so much.

The ironies are just layered on top of one another here, of course. For the cost of any one of these unnecessary grade separations further south, the City could readily refurbish the PoW Bridge anyway. The City currently runs 15 buses of route #105 per hour at peak into downtown Gatineau, and had a massive transfer concourse built at Pimisi Station for that purpose once the Confederation Line opens. 15 full buses per hour is no small amount of passenger traffic; it's in the kind of capacity range of the 8 min Trillium Line

I personally find the City's obsession with "freeing" itself from federal regulations distasteful for a capital city that ought to have something more than a provincial mindset. It's also kind of stupid as it has advantages as well. For a line into Gatineau, it would give the City the upper hand when it comes to creating the line itself and stations in Gatineau. Need a grade crossing at Rue Eddy? That can be done even if Gatineau doesn't want to cooperate. Gatineau not willing to cooperate on stations? Well... that's what federal powers of expropriation are for, be it from private landowners or the City of Gatineau itself.

The federally-regulated status of the Prescott Sub south of Hunt Club to Leitrim Road past the airport also protects that bit of track from being seized by the Airport: if the Airport wants to lengthen a runway, it would have to realign or grade separate the track, neither of which it wants to do, of course... which is why they wanted the line diverted (at City expense) into the Airport grounds rather than continuing on to Riverside South. A provincial line would be vulnerable to just being expropriated outright, like the roads are.



Ah, but if MOOSE was to acquire the Bridge through a discontinuance, then the City would have to turn it over in a decent state. But the Bridge itself wasn't actually the primary source of MOOSE's complaint: it's that aforementioned support pillar at Bayview Station and the blockage of the original RoW with fill and a path and suchlike. The track locations at the new station don't have enough vertical clearance for a mainline railway, so from a legal perspective they can't be used as a stand-in for the mainline even if reconnected on the north side. The old Bayview spur got an exemption *because it was a spur* while the mainline was unaffected. But now the mainline has been blocked by permanent construction, which is essentially illegal. The City could theoretically get around it if they discontinued the segment from the Bayview switch northwards AND IF no one else came along and bought it. But of course there's MOOSE and buying a short bit of track might well be within their financial abilities (and the bridge will be assigned no value at all since it requires refurbishment). If so, the City would be on the hook for altering Bayview Station or providing a bypass (say through the back of Tom Brown Arena and under Scott and the Confederation Line).

This situation is entirely the City's own fault: all it had to do was not build on top of the old mainline. That's it. It's a spectacularly stupid own goal.

I don't believe it is the case that all railways that cross federally regulated railways are therefore federally regulated. Almost all railways cross federally regulated railways at some point. The federal government may continue to regulate the intersection (as they do with roads).

I also do not believe it is the case that railways acquired through discontuance have to be upgraded before they are transferred.

There is little evidence that Moose would be able to aquire the bridge through a discontinuance the process. Moose appears to have extremely limited financial resources and are not a railway at this point.

The city's ownership of track in Gatineau ends just after the Quebec shore. They could not run a service into Gatineau without other partners.

I cannot imagine those 105 customers would appreciate getting dumped off at the UQO campus. Most want to go to downtown Gatineau (where the bus conveniently takes them now.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

How was the Letrim Road Open House, anything interesting about the design?

I didn't know much about it before I went so I was rather shocked by what I saw.

Leitrim Road will be moved considerably southward from east of Albion Road to midway between River Road and Limebank Road.

Between Bank and the end point west of Limebank it will be 4 laned, but mostly without a centre median.

Depending on whether the portion is urban or rural (Greenbelt), there will either be sidewalks and bike tracks or a MUP.

The plan is long-term and is dependant on the airport needing the current Leitrim Road right of way for a future runway. Post 2031.

Roundabouts are planned at River Road and Bowesville Road.

Because it is being move southward, there will be a better road access to the Leitrim Park n Ride.

Leitrim Road between the Trillium Line and Limebank Road will be abandoned. Also a portion east of Albion near the Industrial Park will be abandoned.

The end point of the Leitrim Road diversion in the west is specifically being designed as a T intersection to connect to a possible new Rideau River bridge crossing to Fallowfield from north of Leitrim Road.

There will be a MUP west of the end point to River Road.

The new Leitrim Road route will bisect the planned employment area in Riverside South. I was surprised that the area south of the airport on airport property is being designated also as an employment area. I always thought that development was precluded because it is at the end of the runway and was a protected 'crash zone'.

There are no plans for bus lanes as it was thought that buses in mixed traffic would work well. I personally have questioned how all our plans for arterial roads and arterial road expansion in suburban areas have paid lip service towards transit even in the long-term. Every plan seems to rely on shuttling transit riders to rail instead of building a much more desirable transit grid with transit improvements on most arterial roads. I also questioned one of the planners concerning our current fad of backing all development away from arterials. The direct impact of this was speeding up traffic (to highway speeds) and making transit meander on residential streets. In other words, transit would not be able to take advantage of the new roads to any significant degree. It was strange because at the same time as we back all development away from these roads, the planners are trying to reduce traffic speed.

In the short-term, there will be improvements to the Bank and Leitrim, Bank and Albion intersections. This has to be a concern considering that traffic congestion is already very bad, so unless the intersection improvements do a lot, we can count on continued worsening congestion for a long, long time.

There will be another study soon to extend and widen Earl Armstrong Road from Limebank to Hawthorne Road.

I took pictures of the main plan but I don't know how to post them here. I expect that they will be posted on the city's website.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Speaking of mobile integration, both agencies are falling behind on mobile payments. Why Metrolinx has not talked to Apple and Google on mobile payments with Presto is beyond me. This is something Ottawa should absolutely demand.

Also would be nice of Gatineau to adopt another fare card. Either go with Presto from Metrolinx (best choice) or OPUS from Montreal (alternative used by the rest of Quebec).

My biggest issue with the STO card is that you have wait 48 hours for anything you load onto it online to be usable on the buses. (I believe OC Transpo has a delay before online loading shows up on the card as well - but it may not be as long.)

The good thing about STO though is that they have loading terminals not just in their corporate offices and stations but also in dozens of other locations all over Gatineau. You're never very far from a location which is usually your neighbourhood dépanneur - there are two near my house - where you can load your card pretty much anytime any day. Plus those private vendor loading terminal transactions, contrary to online loading, show up instantaneously on your card. So you can walk out the door of the dépanneur and step right onto a bus.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

OC is 4 to 6 hour refresh timeframe for online reload updates. Other Presto jurisdictions are still up to 24 hour refresh.

Metrolinx is expanding their physical reload point network to Shopper's Drug Mart locations - limited to begin, mostly TO, then expanding - no word on Ottawa area.

Instant refresh of your card at a physical post is also part of Presto - presently at the 4 OC offices and 2 city hall offices. This will expand with all the stations of the O-Train (C-Line and T-Line both), and possibly some transitway stations coming as well.

FYI.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Gatineau has had Google Maps integration for a few months now...

I wasn't aware of this either... it's a pretty big deal. It certainly makes it easier for many people.

I understand that the Rapibus has restrictions with the 1-lane bridge that forces buses going against peak to go a different way, but this makes something that should be pretty straightforward (e.g. what bus to take to go from the Rideau Centre to Promenades Gatineau) into something more complicated.

If you are going at AM peak, you take the 300
If you are going at mid-day, you take the 400
If you are going at PM peak, you take the 200

It's certainly not obvious!

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Instant refresh of your card at a physical post is also part of Presto - presently at the 4 OC offices and 2 city hall offices. This will expand with all the stations of the O-Train (C-Line and T-Line both), and possibly some transitway stations coming as well.

FYI.

Instant Presto load is already available at the Fare Machines at Greenboro, Mooney's Bay, Carleton and Carling stations.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I didn't know much about it before I went so I was rather shocked by what I saw.

Leitrim Road will be moved considerably southward from east of Albion Road to midway between River Road and Limebank Road.

The info is now online at https://ottawa.ca/en/leitrim-road-re...splay-boards-1

I also questioned one of the planners concerning our current fad of backing all development away from arterials. The direct impact of this was speeding up traffic (to highway speeds) and making transit meander on residential streets. In other words, transit would not be able to take advantage of the new roads to any significant degree. It was strange because at the same time as we back all development away from these roads, the planners are trying to reduce traffic speed.

I don't completely disagree with you but I think the "fad of backing all development away from arterials" was much more of an 80s and 90s thing. There seems to (thankfully) be much less rear-lotting of homes along arterials in newer developments.

In most new subdivisons in the city, there is either higher density housing along the arterial or "window streets" where the local road is directly parallel to the arterial allowing a pedestrian connection.

Examples:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.27486...2!8i6656?hl=en

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.25005...2!8i6656?hl=en

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Metrolinx is expanding their physical reload point network to Shopper's Drug Mart locations - limited to begin, mostly TO, then expanding - no word on Ottawa area.

Colour me shocked to find Metrolinx treating Ottawa as an afterthought.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I wasn't aware of this either... it's a pretty big deal. It certainly makes it easier for many people.

I understand that the Rapibus has restrictions with the 1-lane bridge that forces buses going against peak to go a different way, but this makes something that should be pretty straightforward (e.g. what bus to take to go from the Rideau Centre to Promenades Gatineau) into something more complicated.

If you are going at AM peak, you take the 300
If you are going at mid-day, you take the 400
If you are going at PM peak, you take the 200

It's certainly not obvious!

You actually inverted the 300 and the 200.

The 200 is the AM peak direction route from the Rapibus corridor to downtown Ottawa. It goes through Vieux-Hull but does not make any stops there.

The 300 is the PM reverse peak route from the eastern segment of the Rapibus corridor to downtown Ottawa. It gets off the Rapibus at La Gappe and takes the A-50, A-5, M-C Bridge and King Edward routing.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I also questioned one of the planners concerning our current fad of backing all development away from arterials. The direct impact of this was speeding up traffic (to highway speeds) and making transit meander on residential streets. In other words, transit would not be able to take advantage of the new roads to any significant degree.

I see your point but having single family homes (with driveways) on arterial roads with traffic in excess of 1000 cars per hour per direction in itself is problematic as you really don't want cars backing onto these roads. There are safer and more effective ways of reducing traffic speeds and allowing buses to run on the artirial while still serving the neighbourhood. For the latter, pathways running from the side streets to the arterial road near where the bus stop is to be located works just as well if not better as not only are you serving the row of homes on the arterial, but all the other homes in the community. Unfortunately this requires planning, something the city isn't very good at.

I took pictures of the main plan but I don't know how to post them here.

For future reference, put them on imgur (it is free and you don't even need to create an account if you don't want to) and then link to them on here (to insert the image, right click on it and select "Copy image address" and use that as the URL in the Insert Image tool).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You actually inverted the 300 and the 200.

Proving his point about how confusing it is. LOL

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by roger1818

....

For future reference, put them on imgur (it is free and you don't even need to create an account if you don't want to) and then link to them on here (to insert the image, right click on it and select "Copy image address" and use that as the URL in the Insert Image tool).

Good Day.... Thx, I did not know how, and have wanted to for some time. Appreciated.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Proving his point about how confusing it is. LOL

I know.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I see your point but having single family homes (with driveways) on arterial roads with traffic in excess of 1000 cars per hour per direction in itself is problematic as you really don't want cars backing onto these roads. There are safer and more effective ways of reducing traffic speeds and allowing buses to run on the artirial while still serving the neighbourhood. For the latter, pathways running from the side streets to the arterial road near where the bus stop is to be located works just as well if not better as not only are you serving the row of homes on the arterial, but all the other homes in the community. Unfortunately this requires planning, something the city isn't very good at.



For future reference, put them on imgur (it is free and you don't even need to create an account if you don't want to) and then link to them on here (to insert the image, right click on it and select "Copy image address" and use that as the URL in the Insert Image tool).

Thanks for the information.

Regarding your other comment, I was not thinking about single family homes facing the arterial with individual driveways. I was thinking more of businesses. Something like we see on Innes Road.

A perfect example of what I am talking about is most of Hunt Club east of Bank Street. There are so few pedestrian accesses that the buses have no choice but to meander.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Regarding your other comment, I was not thinking about single family homes facing the arterial with individual driveways. I was thinking more of businesses. Something like we see on Innes Road.

You have to be careful that you don't end up with something like Merivale Rd. where there is so much traffic and congestion from all the retail that everything gets plugged.

A perfect example of what I am talking about is most of Hunt Club east of Bank Street. There are so few pedestrian accesses that the buses have no choice but to meander.

The big problem with Hunt Club east of Bank is that there not only are no pathways that connect to Hunt Club, but they have put up walls to block all pedestrian access where they could have accessed it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Colour me shocked to find Metrolinx treating Ottawa as an afterthought.

With every Confederation Line station having a reload machine, do you really need the Shopper's presence? I'm not surprised they haven't prioritized that in Ottawa.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Gatineau has had Google Maps integration for a few months now...

Out of town for the year. Missed that. It's still frustrating that it took this long.

Now, about those mobile payments....

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

With every Confederation Line station having a reload machine, do you really need the Shopper's presence? I'm not surprised they haven't prioritized that in Ottawa.

I dont have to go to a station to reload my STO monthly pass so i dont see why Ottawa residents would have to go to a station to reload theirs.

If the city of Ottawa want increased ridership, things should be made easier. At least if its at Shoppers drug mart it puts reloading a monthly pass within walking distance like it should be IMO.

[Acajack]

Especially since for most people their point of entry on the OC Transpo system won't be a rail station, but rather a bus.

[Acajack]

It's really a breeze reloading STO passes due to the multiple locations where you can do it. Just did it this week.