The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Innsertnamehere]

905 systems can only drop off passengers in Toronto, then pick them up on their way out. You cannot use a 905 system to go point to point within the city, they must be used to enter or leave the city only.

But yes, there are probably about a dozen different bus routes from 4 different 905 transit agencies that enter toronto.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Mister F

It just doesn't make any sense to build a subway extension that would do little more than replace a perfectly good rapid transit line that already exists. In a city as transit starved as Toronto that's a horrible use of money. Upgrading the SRT line or ordering new custom vehicles to fit the guideway would be a fraction of the cost. We're essentially paying $3.4 billion to eliminate a transfer. It's ridiculous.

The SRT should have been extended along Eglinton all the way to the airport. It could have been elevated in the suburban sections and underground where the current tunnel is being built. That would have eliminated a transfer from Scarborough, made use of existing infrastructure, and made the Eglinton line a true rapid transit line instead of an LRT that stops at red lights. I guess that would have been too sensible.

As others have said, there is no need to exaggerated by calling the SRT a perfectly good rapid transit line or Toronto being starved for transit to question the extension as the best use of limited funds.

I see once again this is about the number of kilometres and how fast trains go than actually providing services that meet the practical needs of customers. Europe must be a shithole with all those urban lrts that wallow to the admiration of suburban rapid transit lines that fly at 80 kms an hour between distant stops. Eglinton is a wide enough avenue where the line is at grade. The plan is to surround it with an urban community. It's a different idea from running lines in highway medians or, former rail corridors nearby or, elevated over pedestrian heads, etc connecting one TOD to another. That doesn't make it stupid.

[SF Thomas]

Hill Times: Garneau to make decision on Via's high frequency rail plan later this year and Ontario's high speed rail plans.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by Mister F

It just doesn't make any sense to build a subway extension that would do little more than replace a perfectly good rapid transit line that already exists. In a city as transit starved as Toronto that's a horrible use of money. Upgrading the SRT line or ordering new custom vehicles to fit the guideway would be a fraction of the cost. We're essentially paying $3.4 billion to eliminate a transfer. It's ridiculous.

The SRT should have been extended along Eglinton all the way to the airport. It could have been elevated in the suburban sections and underground where the current tunnel is being built. That would have eliminated a transfer from Scarborough, made use of existing infrastructure, and made the Eglinton line a true rapid transit line instead of an LRT that stops at red lights. I guess that would have been too sensible.

I'm not sure why there aren't more people who bring this up. We mostly talk about the decommissioning of the existing SRT as if it were a foregone conclusion, and that a replacement subway either is or isn't warranted vs a replacement LRT. But what about a partial refurbishment of the SRT? Sure, we're told that the system is crumbling and it's basically a miracle every time an SRT train moves at all, but it's difficult to buy that argument when considering for how long that's been the rhetoric. It seems that the main issue is that certain sections need some kind of way of dealing with Toronto's extreme cold, whether that be by covering sections or heating the LIM rail setup. The other issue is the tight curve - but if we're willing to fork out for a complete replacement, wouldn't a partial rebuild and perhaps even an extension be a better option?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

I'm not sure why there aren't more people who bring this up. We mostly talk about the decommissioning of the existing SRT as if it were a foregone conclusion, and that a replacement subway either is or isn't warranted vs a replacement LRT. But what about a partial refurbishment of the SRT? Sure, we're told that the system is crumbling and it's basically a miracle every time an SRT train moves at all, but it's difficult to buy that argument when considering for how long that's been the rhetoric. It seems that the main issue is that certain sections need some kind of way of dealing with Toronto's extreme cold, whether that be by covering sections or heating the LIM rail setup. The other issue is the tight curve - but if we're willing to fork out for a complete replacement, wouldn't a partial rebuild and perhaps even an extension be a better option?

Why fix the curve? Just order new trains. It's not like the rest of the TTC train fleet is any less complicated.

[lrt's friend]

How expensive would it have been to connect the Eglinton crosstown with the SRT? I suspect it would have been unaffordable and much more than the cost of the Scarborough subway extension. If the SRT guideway needs replacement as well as the trains, this may also be very expensive and result in a lengthy interruption in service.

I wouldn't doubt it if the Scarborough subway provides the lowest cost long-term solution with the least disruption.

[Doady]

Eglinton-Crosstown is an LRT that is mostly underground and costs $5 billion. That's already stupid right there.

And focusing on Eglinton East instead of the busier Eglinton West, and not taking advantage or preserving the Richview Corridor (for grade separation), and not connecting with the Mississauga Transitway (grade separated) or the airport, that is even more stupid.

Mississauga and Brampton did a Hurontario corridor to determine the best option: LRT, BRT, or BRT+LRT. Toronto took the opposite approach: choose between LRT, LRT, or LRT. That's Toronto's way of thinking about transit. Very myopic and dogmatic.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How expensive would it have been to connect the Eglinton crosstown with the SRT? I suspect it would have been unaffordable and much more than the cost of the Scarborough subway extension. If the SRT guideway needs replacement as well as the trains, this may also be very expensive and result in a lengthy interruption in service.

I wouldn't doubt it if the Scarborough subway provides the lowest cost long-term solution with the least disruption.

Yeah. I'm not overly familiar with Toronto's ongoing transit planning saga but I do get the sense that looking at things holistically over a 50-year horizon would result in the one-stop Scarborough subway being the cheapest and most effective solution.

[p_xavier]

The REM website has officially launched. There are new renders.
https://rem.info/en/home

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Doady

Eglinton-Crosstown is an LRT that is mostly underground and costs $5 billion. That's already stupid right there.

And focusing on Eglinton East instead of the busier Eglinton West, and not taking advantage or preserving the Richview Corridor (for grade separation), and not connecting with the Mississauga Transitway (grade separated) or the airport, that is even more stupid.

Mississauga and Brampton did a Hurontario corridor to determine the best option: LRT, BRT, or BRT+LRT. Toronto took the opposite approach: choose between LRT, LRT, or LRT. That's Toronto's way of thinking about transit. Very myopic and dogmatic.

This post on the crosstown isn't correct. Westward expansion was put on hold due to the engineering challenge and cost limits imposed. To connect the much higher level yards at old Kodak back down to grade westward, would require an amusement park level slope and at the time no one knew how to fix it. Which is why, now, a new line will ultimately end up being constructed fromt airport to Mt Denis because it isn't feasible to attempt to connect the crosstown westward.

That project took the smart approach in letting an idea die that wasn't realistic. Unlike Scarborough where they are chasing a quagmire but going down the hole of high complexity and high cost for little return.

$5 billion to travel almost the whole stretch of the city is good money spent.

What are the rationale stances to building SSE? How come no comparable exists of this project? Is it because no rational city would build a glorified tunnel underground for such a long stretch?

I've yet to find any comparable project that mimics the SSE with such high costs and dubious ridership projections.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by osmo

This post on the crosstown isn't correct. Westward expansion was put on hold due to the engineering challenge and cost limits imposed. To connect the much higher level yards at old Kodak back down to grade westward, would require an amusement park level slope and at the time no one knew how to fix it. Which is why, now, a new line will ultimately end up being constructed fromt airport to Mt Denis because it isn't feasible to attempt to connect the crosstown westward.

That project took the smart approach in letting an idea die that wasn't realistic. Unlike Scarborough where they are chasing a quagmire but going down the hole of high complexity and high cost for little return.

$5 billion to travel almost the whole stretch of the city is good money spent.

What are the rationale stances to building SSE? How come no comparable exists of this project? Is it because no rational city would build a glorified tunnel underground for such a long stretch?

I've yet to find any comparable project that mimics the SSE with such high costs and dubious ridership projections.

So, uhm, why can they not just elevate some of it?

[osmo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, uhm, why can they not just elevate some of it?

How?

You act like that was not considered.

The portal ends and enters into the Black Creek yard, that sits on hill. Then it has to approach downwards to reach grade which is too hugh of a slope. There is also a rail line and major road to transverse. Tunneling westward isn't an option because of Black Creek just due west and there already is (well was) a clear right of way passage ready to go.

My point is that it was shelved because the cost was too high for the proposed ridership, a line spit would be needed but no planning was outwards that so it was ut in ice.

You would never achieve a clean connection aside from expensive constructions or blowing up that section, rail included, and rebuilding it.

There will be a transfer of the two modes at Mt Denis which I believe is being overbuilt to handle that in the future.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by osmo

How?

You act like that was not considered.

The portal ends and enters into the Black Creek yard, that sits on hill. Then it has to approach downwards to reach grade which is too hugh of a slope. There is also a rail line and major road to transverse. Tunneling westward isn't an option because of Black Creek just due west and there already is (well was) a clear right of way passage ready to go.

My point is that it was shelved because the cost was too high for the proposed ridership, a line spit would be needed but no planning was outwards that so it was ut in ice.

You would never achieve a clean connection aside from expensive constructions or blowing up that section, rail included, and rebuilding it.

There will be a transfer of the two modes at Mt Denis which I believe is being overbuilt to handle that in the future.

Please help me understand, What is the track between Keele and the yard? Street level or tunnel? How does it get to the yard?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by osmo

This post on the crosstown isn't correct. Westward expansion was put on hold due to the engineering challenge and cost limits imposed. To connect the much higher level yards at old Kodak back down to grade westward, would require an amusement park level slope and at the time no one knew how to fix it. Which is why, now, a new line will ultimately end up being constructed fromt airport to Mt Denis because it isn't feasible to attempt to connect the crosstown westward.

lol, what? Where do you get this crap? the crosstown travels underground into Mount Dennis station, and will be extended under Weston Road before popping out in the valley approaching Jane. The city is very much moving forward with the westward extension of the crosstown.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

lol, what? Where do you get this crap? the crosstown travels underground into Mount Dennis station, and will be extended under Weston Road before popping out in the valley approaching Jane. The city is very much moving forward with the westward extension of the crosstown.

From last I read the underground section under Weston road hasn't been settled. Mount Denis Station is above grade dude to the surrounding area constraints I mentioned with the yard. There is the 'roller coaster' issue still on the table which from what I last read was not even in the scope of the new westward plans which got revived after Smart Tracks fumble. This was in 2016, if you have more recent news of this change, please share.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

As others have said, there is no need to exaggerated by calling the SRT a perfectly good rapid transit line or Toronto being starved for transit to question the extension as the best use of limited funds.

I see once again this is about the number of kilometres and how fast trains go than actually providing services that meet the practical needs of customers. Europe must be a shithole with all those urban lrts that wallow to the admiration of suburban rapid transit lines that fly at 80 kms an hour between distant stops. Eglinton is a wide enough avenue where the line is at grade. The plan is to surround it with an urban community. It's a different idea from running lines in highway medians or, former rail corridors nearby or, elevated over pedestrian heads, etc connecting one TOD to another. That doesn't make it stupid.

There's no reason that the SRT can't be maintained in perpetuity and that new trains can't be ordered to replace the old ones. Even the most expensive one-off custom trains would be much cheaper than the current plan.

The suburban parts of Eglinton aren't going to be replaced with anything resembling an "urban community". And there's nothing incompatible about suburban residential infill development and elevated rapid transit, especially on a street as wide as Eglinton.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How expensive would it have been to connect the Eglinton crosstown with the SRT? I suspect it would have been unaffordable and much more than the cost of the Scarborough subway extension. If the SRT guideway needs replacement as well as the trains, this may also be very expensive and result in a lengthy interruption in service.

I wouldn't doubt it if the Scarborough subway provides the lowest cost long-term solution with the least disruption.

A rail line is already being built along Eglinton. Designing it to be slightly more expensive (think Skytrain, Edmonton LRT, Confederation Line, etc.) would have made it faster and more effective and could have potentially eliminated the Kennedy transfer. I don't buy for a second that the SRT can't be maintained or the existing guideway converted to another type of rail transit. Chicago's elevated lines are a lot older and they're still standing. Vancouver and Kuala Lumpur have entire systems based on the same technology as the SRT. Ditto the DLR in London. Countless elevated rail lines, highways, and bridges all over the world aren't falling down, so why is the SRT so uniquely unsound?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Mister F

There's no reason that the SRT can't be maintained in perpetuity and that new trains can't be ordered to replace the old ones. Even the most expensive one-off custom trains would be much cheaper than the current plan.

The suburban parts of Eglinton aren't going to be replaced with anything resembling an "urban community". And there's nothing incompatible about suburban residential infill development and elevated rapid transit, especially on a street as wide as Eglinton.


A rail line is already being built along Eglinton. Designing it to be slightly more expensive (think Skytrain, Edmonton LRT, Confederation Line, etc.) would have made it faster and more effective and could have potentially eliminated the Kennedy transfer. I don't buy for a second that the SRT can't be maintained or the existing guideway converted to another type of rail transit. Chicago's elevated lines are a lot older and they're still standing. Vancouver and Kuala Lumpur have entire systems based on the same technology as the SRT. Ditto the DLR in London. Countless elevated rail lines, highways, and bridges all over the world aren't falling down, so why is the SRT so uniquely unsound?

I question the desirability of running an elevated train down even a suburban arterial road. Chicago may have Els but it is unlikely that something like that would be built today. Vancouver's Skytrains often follow old rail lines or along highways. Ottawa's Confederation Line does not follow any particular street and will provide service to suburban commuters more than urban residents (a big bone of contention on the Ottawa board for a few posters). I think there is much more than a slight difference in cost between a centre street right of way and an elevated guideway.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why fix the curve? Just order new trains. It's not like the rest of the TTC train fleet is any less complicated.

It is odd that the SRT is the same technology as most of Vancouver Skytrain. Except in Vancouver they manage to run the system driverless and keep expanding it. In Toronto the technology is viewed a problem that needs to be replaced. Something does not add up there.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

It is odd that the SRT is the same technology as most of Vancouver Skytrain. Except in Vancouver they manage to run the system driverless and keep expanding it. In Toronto the technology is viewed a problem that needs to be replaced. Something does not add up there.

I blame the transit union.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by casper

It is odd that the SRT is the same technology as most of Vancouver Skytrain. Except in Vancouver they manage to run the system driverless and keep expanding it. In Toronto the technology is viewed a problem that needs to be replaced. Something does not add up there.

You just need to read the history of the project. Politics, politics, politics. All three levels of government have been involved, often overriding the decisions made at another level.

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/04/replacing-scarborough-rt-tortuous-timeline

Politics often override sensible planning and there needs to be a strong municipal government with good leadership to keep the momentum going. When there is division, you can almost count on flip-flops, endless delays, lack of progress and escalating costs. The Scarborough project is a perfect example.