PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Boku

The soda tax created pre k seats for 2,000 children, I'm sure their parents think it works.

Don't get me wrong, some of these programs are very worthwhile but we added pre-k when we are so broke, we can't even afford to properly fund K thru 12. It's like being 3 months behind on your mortgage and then trying to buy a shore house.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by PHL10

Don't get me wrong, some of these programs are very worthwhile but we added pre-k when we are so broke, we can't even afford to properly fund K thru 12. It's like being 3 months behind on your mortgage and then trying to buy a shore house.

There is a compelling argument that pre-k is at least as important for future success as more money for K-12. If children are behind on critical skills by the time they hit kindergarten you can give 10th grade all the money you want but it's going to be nearly impossible for those children to catch up to their suburban piers.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by PHL10

It's for the children! I guess the soda tax didn't work but at the same time, won;t go away either. They can raise property taxes again, then maybe a 5% surcharge on all restaurant bills, then maybe a surcharge for Philadelphia residents on the annual vehicle registration fees, then maybe another 0.5% on the existing sales tax surcharge, then maybe......

I thought the soda tax was for parks, libraries and rec centers. This will be specifically for schools. I'm not thrilled about the news, but if it ends up having a positive impact on schools it would increase my chances of staying in the city. I would like to send my child to public school but they have a long way to go to get to where Penn Alexander, Masterman and Central are. The impact to my taxes won’t amount to more than a couple hundred bucks, which I can live with. I can see people with families in the city thinking along the same lines, and more good schools in the city will only encourage people to move here. Not everyone can drop 20k a year on private school.

[mcgrath618]

We don't have a funding problem, we have a Spending problem. Money is wasted daily in inner-city schools. Perhaps some accountants should crunch some numbers and see where things can be cut or made more efficient.

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Boku

The soda tax created pre k seats for 2,000 children, I'm sure their parents think it works.

I'm sure they love spending other people's money for their children's pre-k seats. that doesn't mean it should be done.

[Frontst17]

Schools are the one of the missing links to keeping couples and young families in the city. The public school system is in rough shape and been vastly underfunded for way to long. That's a Harrisburg problem mostly but this is a long term outlook. Better funded schools are only a good thing and if anything is good PR to people moving here or debating staying here. Residents won't like it but many people refuse to send their kid to philly schools and teachers refuse to teach here too. That has to change

[Knight Hospitaller]

I don't want to go off on any more of a tangent than is already the case, but I agree 100% with those who observe that this is not necessarily a funding issue. So much funding is thrown at public schools (in general, I'm not being Philly specific) with little to show for the increased spending. So much public spending is a special interest gravy train - not the truly "progressive" approach to tackling issues that we'd all like to see (even if some of us are conservative). If we could be certain that comprehensive reforms are occurring, then we can talk about how the current budget is spent and where additional funds should come from if needed. Money alone is not the answer to improving things (but when it comes to taxes it can make the whole difference in worsening things).

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

We don't have a funding problem, we have a Spending problem. Money is wasted daily in inner-city schools. Perhaps some accountants should crunch some numbers and see where things can be cut or made more efficient.

You don’t think the city has a funding problem? Do you realize how many services have been cut or are underfunded? Do you know what the per pupil spending is for the School District of Philadelphia vs. the suburbs or even Detroit, Cleveland, and Baltimore?

The numbers have been crunched and the verdict is out. The school district has a very serious revenue problem due to growing pension and healthcare costs.

Out of the 50 largest cities in the US, Philadelphia has the 23rd highest property taxes. Philadelphia’s real estate transfer fee is lower than a number of other cities in PA.

Domb is correct that delinquent payers should be targeted first. This idea that the city has a billion dollars of savings under the cushions or can cut even more services is ludicrous.

All of us wish Rep. Taylor’s constitution admendment would have passed, but it doesn’t seem likely now. Raising the property taxes is the logical thing to do.

Would you guys rather see them raise the wage and business taxes more? We tried that in 1939. We are still paying for their mistakes.

[Londonee]

deleted

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Parkway

There is a compelling argument that pre-k is at least as important for future success as more money for K-12. If children are behind on critical skills by the time they hit kindergarten you can give 10th grade all the money you want but it's going to be nearly impossible for those children to catch up to their suburban piers.

To a degree perhaps but pre-k is more about free day care than it is about developing skills. Also, pre-k doesn't necessarily fix the problems at home that make these kids underperform in school.

My kids didn't even go to pre-k and are doing fine in school. I wonder what critical skills they were lacking in entering K.

[Boku]

Originally Posted by PHL10

To a degree perhaps but pre-k is more about free day care than it is about developing skills. Also, pre-k doesn't necessarily fix the problems at home that make these kids underperform in school.

My kids didn't even go to pre-k and are doing fine in school. I wonder what critical skills they were lacking in entering K.

Even if it is just free day care, I'm ok with it. Day care costs are ridiculous. My wife and I are both working parents and spent more than $19,000 per year on it at one point for two kids. We are fortunate to be able to afford it, but not everyone can.

[PhilliesPhan]

I have no problem with a tax increase if it means that our schools will see an improvement; however, the Commonwealth needs to stop underfunding urban school districts! According to a statistic that I read, the Philly SD is underfunded at a rate of about $4,000/pupil compared to suburban districts. Philadelphia and its surrounding counties already contribute more to the Commonwealth than we receive back. Many suburban and rural politicians hate funding anything that has to do with Philadelphia County, yet they love the tax revenue (aka subsidies to the less productive rural parts of the state) that we produce.

Also, Council needs to stop acting fiscally stupid and shady! Do they realize that they sunk $50 million into the Provident Mutual Building in West Philly, only to abandon that project and get started on the Inky Building all because some officers from the Northeast were concerned about "muh parking" at a transit-accessible building that would have housed several city agencies? Do they realize that they cry broke to the rest of the city, yet have the funds to provide nice contractual increases to the Philly PD (I respect and appreciate their service, btw)? Does Mayor Kenney realize that he's willing to risk the lives of everyone who chooses to bike/skateboard by not providing safe infrastructure due to a "lack of funds", but city revenues have been consistently increasing?

Although this tax increase is necessary, a lot of other things are occurring under the surface. Can we also get some pension reform across the board?

[Redddog]

Teacher unions, underfunded pensions, back-door deals, inept politically motivated SRC and lack of revenue are all things that have sunk this school system. The real problem that over-runs the system is that too many times, parental involvement in children's education is non-existent. Kids show up to school with no preparation or support from home and are doomed to fail. It's tragically sad and such a bigger part of the problem than money.

[iheartphilly]

Educating school kids is a team effort between the teachers, parents, and administrators in the school system. Each part has its own duties and responsibilities. For example, the teacher teaches and encourages kids to learn; the parents parent and make sure kids are loved at home, disciplined, well-behaved, do their homework, encouraged to do more not less, etc. School system administrators provide a safe, clean, and appropriate environment to learn. What the teacher can't be is the parent and the parent can't be the full time teacher, and the administrators can't ignore or sweep problems under the rug but acknowledge them in a proactive way to find solutions. They need to implement plans and take appropriate actions to make sure teachers feel safe teaching and students feel safe learning. Students, teachers, and administrators must not be assaulted by each other in the school system.

[Elevator1]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Teacher unions, underfunded pensions, back-door deals, inept politically motivated SRC and lack of revenue are all things that have sunk this school system. The real problem that over-runs the system is that too many times, parental involvement in children's education is non-existent. Kids show up to school with no preparation or support from home and are doomed to fail. It's tragically sad and such a bigger part of the problem than money.

If you've ever done business with the School District, you have no question why they run out of money. The list is too long, but bottom line is it costs a lot to do work for them. They pay a premium and it usually isn't enough. I would certainly have no interest in doing work for them. One can only wonder at the many areas that savings can be made if they operated like almost any reasonably efficient organization.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by PHL10

To a degree perhaps but pre-k is more about free day care than it is about developing skills. Also, pre-k doesn't necessarily fix the problems at home that make these kids underperform in school.

My kids didn't even go to pre-k and are doing fine in school. I wonder what critical skills they were lacking in entering K.

Frighteningly basic stuff, having stories read to them, normal child social interactions, exposure to the basic concepts of math. One of the results of decades of school dysfunction is that there are many adults in Philadelphia are functionally illiterate. This problem is going to take generations to fix but kicking the can down the road isn't doing anyone any favors.

Edit: I don't have the stat in front of me but a few years ago there was a report and I believe one of the things they found is that the average adult in Philadelphia reads at a 6th grade level. That includes people like me who have a law degree so there are many people who don't even hit that level. Parental support wanes, in part because the parents are unable to help their children with the work being sent home.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I don't want to go off on any more of a tangent than is already the case, but I agree 100% with those who observe that this is not necessarily a funding issue. So much funding is thrown at public schools (in general, I'm not being Philly specific) with little to show for the increased spending. So much public spending is a special interest gravy train - not the truly "progressive" approach to tackling issues that we'd all like to see (even if some of us are conservative). If we could be certain that comprehensive reforms are occurring, then we can talk about how the current budget is spent and where additional funds should come from if needed. Money alone is not the answer to improving things (but when it comes to taxes it can make the whole difference in worsening things).

I'd say that public education is one of the most important concerns that City gov't can and should have. Comparing what is spent in the City per student to many suburban districts is never going to show you very much, except that some suburban districts spend alot on their students. Without any inside knowledge I'll accept that the schools could use more funds (from where ever), but as a City taxpayer I don't want to give the school district a dime more until they show that the people at the top have some sense of what they're doing. Every new administration comes in with a new set of ideas, "new school buildings", or "better tests results", or "more support for teachers" and the list can go on and on. Usually the latest goal has little to nothing to do with the pervious goals. Its just somebody and their "team" throwing darts in the dark. I'm completely convinced that nearly 50% of the districts spending is wasteful in some degree or another, so why give them more $$$ when they have consistently shown that they, the people at the top, that they aren't chiefly concerned with primary, basic education and taking care of the citizens money. (ok, maybe only 40%)

I fully agree with those that say that education takes more then just what takes place in the classroom, chiefly the parents/care givers have to be hands on involved in creating an environment where education can take place. Society can do some things to help that process, such as provide breakfast and lunch, but the school district by definition is limited----the kids are in school for 4 to 6 hours a day, 7 to 9 months of the year. The desire to help is good, but from my limited experience trying to help out in City schools I'd say that what happens is that in the class room experience, unless there's a truly an all star teacher, that the bottom, the problem kids, ends up ruling what happens for the rest of the students. Does it make any sense to try to help the bottom 10% or 20% of students by taking away from 60% of the students.

Personally I'd like to see parents agree to one of several different contracts with the school their kid goes to. The more involved the parent is willing to be would effect what school the kid gets to go to. So if all a parent is willing to do or can do is on most days just get their kid to school, then the kids in that school will have a much different experience and different expectations, then kids who parents who can contract to read to their kids, help with homework, see that the kid gets exercise and exposal to the wide world. Certainly there would have to be opportunity for individual kids to show that they can or can't handle being in a certain school, and room to improve and advance. The concept is that the school says we will offer your kid this type of education if the family agrees to certain other outside of the school factors.

But something major has to change. The City can't just keep throwing good money after bad and have some vague hope that the whole system is going to improve. Its just not fair to the taxpayers. The last thing the City can do is return to the idea of the 70's where you just keep adding one tax after another, with little to show for all the taxes except the status quo, and not have that policy have very real world effects, like people and businesses moving out of the City.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Parkway

Frighteningly basic stuff, having stories read to them, normal child social interactions, exposure to the basic concepts of math. One of the results of decades of school dysfunction is that there are many adults in Philadelphia are functionally illiterate. This problem is going to take generations to fix but kicking the can down the road isn't doing anyone any favors.

Glorified daycare at the expense of taxpayers. We really don't have full say of our hard earned money. Taxes are going up in all levels of gov't in PA. Too many money spending problems and pension liabilities as others have pointed out. SMH.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Glorified daycare at the expense of taxpayers. We really don't have full say of our hard earned money. Taxes are going up in all levels of gov't in PA. Too many money spending problems and pension liabilities as others have pointed out. SMH.

What's the alternative here? Mom leaves the kid at home in front of the TV for 6 hours while she goes to work? Pension obligations are a separate issue from the purpose of education. It would be nice if the obligation had been funded properly but cutting back on services like pre-k is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Ultimately if more of the population have the tools to be productive members of society the larger our tax base can be and the less money we will have to put towards expensive social programs and the criminal justice system.

[iamrobk]

Complete guess, but I suspect City Council will end up compromising and agreeing to a 3% property tax increase rather than the requested 6% increase. Would be a repeat of the Beverage Tax situation, where the original $0.03/ounce proposal (IIRC) ended up at $0.015/ounce.