VIA Rail network developments

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not sure if it makes sense to buy rolling stock without a plan. An HFR service requires fairly small rolling stock (because they would run a lot of trains) and would probably benefit from a DMU type vehicle. On the other hand, if there is to be no HFR they need longer trains (a straight up replacement for existing rolling stock). On the other hand, if they want higher speeds they need a totally different rolling stock.

In a perfect world, yes. Unfortunately if we wait for the government to approve (or reject) HFR, we will end up killing Via Rail in the process as they will end up loosing half of their fleet (and potentially all of their locomotives). Maybe what they order would be different than what they would have ordered, but it will still be usable.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I don't know if DMUs would be suited for the type of service that Via provides. Places where Via might consider DMUs are, well... places they already use them (the RDCs).

I agree they are not suitable for current service, but they are well-suited to the HFR service they are proposing.

[roger1818]

My guess is the government will give Via emergency funding to purchase 66 cars (to replace the HEPII and Renaissance corridor cars) and 21 locomotives (to replace the P42 Locomotives which cannot be upgraded to the new crashworthiness safety standards). Depending on the cost, they may have them refurbish some of the F40 locomotives as well.

The remainder of the request will wait for a decision on HFR.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

My guess is the government will give Via emergency funding to purchase 66 cars (to replace the HEPII and Renaissance corridor cars) and 21 locomotives (to replace the P42 Locomotives which cannot be upgraded to the new crashworthiness safety standards). Depending on the cost, they may have them refurbish some of the F40 locomotives as well.

The remainder of the request will wait for a decision on HFR.

That would definitely make the most sense.

If the decided to go with a different style of train for HFR, they could transfer the new corridor trains to other lines like the Ocean and stuff.

[roger1818]

For locomotive power, the only passenger diesel locomotives I can find (there may be others) that meet Tier IV emissions standards (a requirement) are:

• EMD F125
• MotivePower MP54AC
• Siemens Charger

They all have a top speed of 125 mph (201 km/h).

For DMU, I can only find the following (once again, there may be others):

• Nippon Sharyo DMU

It has a top speed of 90 mph (145 km/h), so it probably wouldn't be appropriate for HFR.

[mxg308]

I realize it's not a development but Via Rail released their Family Day weekend statistics and Toronto-Ottawa was the most popular route 13,700 passengers between Feb 15-20 a 14% increase from 2017. Toronto-Montreal saw 9,700. According to Via Rail, Ottawa-Kingston saw the second largest percentage increase (19%) from last year with 1,500 passengers travelling with Via Rail in 2018.

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/...8-family-day-long-weekend-via-rail-rider

[Truenorth00]

Budget out. No HFR. Vague wording indicating upcoming procurement.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Budget out. No HFR. Vague wording indicating upcoming procurement.

I'm surprised. Word around town is that the project is a go.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Budget out. No HFR. Vague wording indicating upcoming procurement.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I'm surprised. Word around town is that the project is a go.

My guess is they gave Via the green light for the official RFQ for new equipment but won't approve the order until 2019, once they have a firm price (they probably didn't trust Via's preliminary cost estimates).

[SF Thomas]

Hill Times: Garneau to make decision on Via's high frequency rail plan later this year and Ontario's high speed rail plans.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by SF Thomas

Hill Times: Garneau to make decision on Via's high frequency rail plan later this year and Ontario's high speed rail plans.

LOL. Decide on Ontario's plans after the election in Ontario.... That just means they won't say no till after.

And as for HFR, "we'll need more time to study it, till after the next federal election".

[c_speed3108]

There is an item in the federal budget for VIA's fleet replacement.

...and $12m to study the HFR proposal.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

LOL. Decide on Ontario's plans after the election in Ontario.... That just means they won't say no till after.

And as for HFR, "we'll need more time to study it, till after the next federal election".

That could well be, although one can think of other reasons why they might want to wait to see the outcome of the election ....

[acottawa]

I have a neighbour who works on this. As of a few months ago the government hadn't made any decisions. That may still be the case.

I think Via has bungled this pretty badly. The complete lack of transparency is a huge problem as is waiting so long to ask for a feasibility study (that should have been step 1).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

LOL. Decide on Ontario's plans after the election in Ontario.... That just means they won't say no till after.

And as for HFR, "we'll need more time to study it, till after the next federal election".

Given that it is leading up to a federal election, I'm guessing that they will approve both of these knowing that the province will renege on their side of HSR, having just had a provincial election (and quite likely a change in government). Nothing like promising money before an election you know you won't have to spend due to no fault of your own.

[esquire]

I have some questions about this:

-What happens to the 1950s vintage HEP II fleet? Will LRC cars be kept and used in a way that will allow them to replace the older cars, or will enough equipment be procured to replace all equipment in the corridor?

-Will VIA attempt to find another bargain-basement solution like with the Renaissance fleet, or will it acquire equipment built to VIA's own specs this time?

-With the HEP fleet forming the backbone of the transcontinental fleet now well over 60 years old, is there any long term plan to eventually deal with fleet renewal on that front? Presumably at some point that equipment will reach the end of its useful life in the not too distant future. Is transcontinental service just going to end whenever that happens, whether it's 10 or 20 years from now?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by esquire

I have some questions about this:

-What happens to the 1950s vintage HEP II fleet? Will LRC cars be kept and used in a way that will allow them to replace the older cars, or will enough equipment be procured to replace all equipment in the corridor?

-Will VIA attempt to find another bargain-basement solution like with the Renaissance fleet, or will it acquire equipment built to VIA's own specs this time?

-With the HEP fleet forming the backbone of the transcontinental fleet now well over 60 years old, is there any long term plan to eventually deal with fleet renewal on that front? Presumably at some point that equipment will reach the end of its useful life in the not too distant future. Is transcontinental service just going to end whenever that happens, whether it's 10 or 20 years from now?

I don't understand all the hate for the HEP cars. They are stainless steel and the chassis will basically last forever. Many of them were upgraded a few years ago.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by esquire

-What happens to the 1950s vintage HEP II fleet? Will LRC cars be kept and used in a way that will allow them to replace the older cars, or will enough equipment be procured to replace all equipment in the corridor?

From what I have seen, they plan to order enough equipment to replace the entire corridor fleet. However, I don't think they are ordering extra for growth. As a result I suspect they will continue to use the LRCs until their EOL. The skeptic in me thinks they will then approach the government to say they need to replace them for a second time.

As for the HEP II cars, my guess is they will try to sell them. They would be great for tourist trains. Unlike the HEP cars used on long distance and regional trains, I gather most of the HEP II cars originate from the US Railroads, so they don't have any Canadian historical significance.

-Will VIA attempt to find another bargain-basement solution like with the Renaissance fleet, or will it acquire equipment built to VIA's own specs this time?

I doubt if they will buy used again, but they did say they want to buy units currently in production for the North American market and not go custom. For that there are a couple different options that would be good.

-With the HEP fleet forming the backbone of the transcontinental fleet now well over 60 years old, is there any long term plan to eventually deal with fleet renewal on that front? Presumably at some point that equipment will reach the end of its useful life in the not too distant future. Is transcontinental service just going to end whenever that happens, whether it's 10 or 20 years from now?

This was acknowledged in the 2016-2020 Corporate Plan. At the time a study was in progress, but had not been completed. I have not seen the results of this study, but something will likely need to be done.

I gather most of the HEP fleet was recently refurbished, but the bigger issue is the Renaissance Cars as they likely have the same rusting and maintenance issues as their corridor sisters. They will most likely need to be replaced, which wouldn't be a bad thing as they could get cars that are more compatible with the HEP fleet.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by roger1818

This was acknowledged in the 2016-2020 Corporate Plan. At the time a study was in progress, but had not been completed. I have not seen the results of this study, but something will likely need to be done.

I gather most of the HEP fleet was recently refurbished, but the bigger issue is the Renaissance Cars as they likely have the same rusting and maintenance issues as their corridor sisters. They will most likely need to be replaced, which wouldn't be a bad thing as they could get cars that are more compatible with the HEP fleet.

If that's the case then that's unfortunate and makes the Renaissance fleet even more of a bungle. But at least replacing them will be the silver lining.

As to the HEP fleet, I don't hate it and it's clear from their track record that they're well built. But IMO they will soon be pushing the century mark and you have to wonder how well suited they are to the current reality that VIA finds itself in from a number of perspectives (passenger preferences, labour, safety, accessibility, amenities, mechanical).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't understand all the hate for the HEP cars. They are stainless steel and the chassis will basically last forever. Many of them were upgraded a few years ago.

I believe only the HEP cars were upgraded, not the HEP IIs. For long distance and regional trains, they are adequate. For corridor services they are heavy, slow and don't provide as smooth a ride as more modern equipment.

Here is what VIA Rail has to say about the HEP II cars in their 2016-2020 Corporate Plan:

• They are over 60 years old and they have greatly exceeded their useful service life;
• They were acquired used from various sources during the 1980’s and they are not a standardized fleet which compromises VIA Rail’s efficiency;
• Although the stainless steel car body shells can last almost indefinitely, the rest of the components (undercarriage, interiors, systems, fixtures and fittings) cannot, and require major revamping every 30 years; and
• A program to replace the bogies (part of the undercarriage) and provide new interiors would still yield an-outdated car type with limited market appeal.

As for the HEP cars, It certainly would make sense for VIA to keep the ex CP Dining, 'Skyline' (dome), and 'Park' (dome observation) cars as they are wonderfully decorated and have tremendous historical significance in Canada. They might was well keep the Coach and Baggage-Dormitory cars as they are adequate and do provide some historical significance. IMHO the 'Chateau' and 'Manor' Sleepers should be replaced though. While they do provide historical significance in their names, the accommodations they provide, while luxury at the time, do not meet modern expectations, especially for a multi-day trip. Modifications have been made to help (adding a public shower in each car and private washrooms in the bedrroms), doing much more would be a challenge and we would be better off starting from scratch. This would likely require a custom design.