PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by City Wide

All this talk about Bloomingdale's got me thinking, and I really know nothing about any of this-------Macy's and Bloomies are owned by the same parent company, how much different is there between the two stores and is there enough of a separate market to support two large department stores within in 10 blocks of each other?

And why all the talk about Bloomingdale's, and not some store owned by a different company, like Nordstrom? They certainly have shown a willingness to enter a urban market in NYC

Bloomingdales is much more upscale than Macy. I think there is room for both. The bigger question is whether we have enough residents and visitors earning sufficient income to shop at Bloomies and buy the brands they sell at the levels they need to succeed here. I don't know the answer. I'd say that Nordstrom is at the same level and would be just as happy to see that. But it's a much smaller company that also recently announced it is going private. I think New York may be its only location with an urban store. Bloomingdales has stores in a number of other cities where the demographics work such as Chicago, Dallas, San Diego, and 2 in Los Angeles.

Assuming they don't want to be East of Broad, I actually think the Avis lot that sold at 20th and Arch is the perfect spot. It's big, a block away from CTC, in an increasingly populous and wealthy business district that is also increasingly residential/mixed use, and only a few blocks from Rittenhouse Square (and 19th and Walnut itself).

[summersm343]

Kensington project with 155 condos wins key approval



Read more here:
https://philly.curbed.com/2018/2/22/17039722/kensington-project-155-single-family-homes

[summersm343]

March CDR Submissions:

150-80 W. Berks Street
A mix of 4-story condos/townhomes. Norris Square/Olde Kensington
PDF: http://www.phila.gov/CityPlanning/projec...%20W%20Berks%20St_CDR%20Presentation.pdf

1401 S. Columbus Blvd
"Waterfront Boulevard." A mix of 3-4 story townhomes. Some retail. Queen Village/Delaware Waterfront
PDF: http://www.phila.gov/CityPlanning/projec...umbus%20Blvd_Civic%20Design%20Review.pdf

St. Mary's Site Redevelopment - Manayunk
A mix of 3-4 story buildings housing apartments and townhomes.
PDF: http://www.phila.gov/CityPlanning/projec...s%20presentation%202-13-2018_REDUCED.pdf

[FtGreeneNY]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

But it's a much smaller company that also recently announced it is going private. I think New York may be its only location with an urban store. Bloomingdales has stores in a number of other cities where the demographics work such as Chicago, Dallas, San Diego, and 2 in Los Angeles.

It's kind of the opposite: Bloomingdale's only has 'downtown' locations in New York, Chicago, and San Francisco, whereas Nordstrom has 'downtown' locations in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Chicago, and whenever they finish the building, New York; they also used to have one in Indianapolis and Minneapolis.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^Nordstrom is in downtown Salt Lake too.

[FtGreeneNY]

Right, furthering the point, LOL!

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by FtGreeneNY

It's kind of the opposite: Bloomingdale's only has 'downtown' locations in New York, Chicago, and San Francisco, whereas Nordstrom has 'downtown' locations in Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Chicago, and whenever they finish the building, New York; they also used to have one in Indianapolis and Minneapolis.

I consider Bloomingdales Beverly Boulevard location and other places I ID’d outside Bew York, Chicago, and San Francisco to be “downtown.” I think you have to consider the cities you are dealing with. A lot of LA’s high end neighborhoods, like Pacific Palisades and Bel Air, are not very walkable. The Bloomingdales are still downtown Bloomingdales within the rubrics of those cities. I didn’t know about all the downtown Nordstrom’s. I guess we are both wrong in a way. But either should do fine here if the demographics can support them.

[DIESELPOLO]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Kensington project with 155 condos wins key approval



Read more here:
https://philly.curbed.com/2018/2/22/17039722/kensington-project-155-single-family-homes

Architecture is fine. They are right next to freight rail line and must clean up the site's soil, but those points don't seem to bother me. But it deviates from the current zoning in that there is not meant to be residential construction in this area of Kensington...? I don't know what to think.

[FtGreeneNY]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

I consider Bloomingdales Beverly Boulevard location and other places I ID’d outside Bew York, Chicago, and San Francisco to be “downtown.” I think you have to consider the cities you are dealing with. A lot of LA’s high end neighborhoods, like Pacific Palisades and Bel Air, are not very walkable. The Bloomingdales are still downtown Bloomingdales within the rubrics of those cities. I didn’t know about all the downtown Nordstrom’s. I guess we are both wrong in a way. But either should do fine here if the demographics can support them.

Right, for the most part that's exactly what I said. However, the Beverly location is specifically not downtown LA, which is a thing with stores, offices, and increasingly residents; it's in a mall which most people drive to (and is fairly difficult to walk to from any distance.

My point was that Nordstrom's been more willing to locate in downtowns. But with few exceptions, Bloomingdale's has historically not located in city centers - the Philly area's supported two for decades, in KOP and Willow Grove - but in recent years it's been attempting to do that more (the ones I listed as well as the smaller one in the old Canal Jeans space in 'EuroDisney', but it's slow and selective going.

That said, I would love to see Philly get both in addition to others (Needless Markup, Saks, L&T), but whether or not the market there can actually support that is less a current question in some ways than whether national department store retailers can ditch their historic idea of the Center City market as not having that buying capacity (and well-sited and sufficient space for them, ahem, 'Laurel'). Some good movement on smaller footprint chains, but not so much big stores.

[ePlanningPhila]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

I consider Bloomingdales Beverly Boulevard location and other places I ID’d outside Bew York, Chicago, and San Francisco to be “downtown.” I think you have to consider the cities you are dealing with. A lot of LA’s high end neighborhoods, like Pacific Palisades and Bel Air, are not very walkable. The Bloomingdales are still downtown Bloomingdales within the rubrics of those cities. I didn’t know about all the downtown Nordstrom’s. I guess we are both wrong in a way. But either should do fine here if the demographics can support them.

I agree 100%; Bloomingdale's historically has always been the more 'urban' company. Even in terms of the product and line/fashion brands it carries, Bloomingdale's tend to be catered to a slightly more progressive/urban chic, more daring clientele, where Nordstrom is a little more tamed with its suburban buyer influence/prowess. To each there own on preference, but I tend to think Bloomingdale's is slightly better.

Locations like Chevy Chase, MD are 100% urban, as well as its 3 locations in L.A, are by all definitions urban in its form.

Here is a google streetview of the Chevy Chase, MD store (which is on the D.C border). https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9608158,...Keq0hwhCSPbp3UV6l_oYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Also to be frank I find the current Friendship Heights/Chevy Chase, MD retail corridor to be the best example of mix of discount and higher end retail and the future build out potential for Market East.

Discount brands like T.J Maxx, Marshalls, former Loehmans (basically a very small version of Century 21), Nordstrom Rack, etc. are mixed with fast fashion/staple market brands like Old Navy, DSW, H & M, along with some mid - market premium staples like J.Crew and Banana Republic, a few higher end offerings, along with some bigger box retailers such as World Market (this retailer would compliment Philadelphia extremely well) and Department stores like Bloomingdale's. If you have never been there, definitely explore a bit on google street view. The layout and street feel in my mind mimics something very similar to what East Market future can hold.

Also fun facts about both stores regionally.

1) Macy's Inc. most profitable store in the region is indeed the Center City location; and one of their best performing nationwide.

2) Nordstrom at King of Prussia Mall is the most profitable store on the East Coast. Although I am sure once the new store opens in NYC, that could potentially change.

3) Fast Demographics.
Core Center City Population (South to Vine - River to River): 65,000 with median household income at $116,000/year.
Greater Center City Population (Girard to Washington - River to River): 188,000 with median household income at $96,000/year.

[shadowbat2]

11th and Chestnut update:

All the black boards have gotten windows in them now....now hopefully they move on to the second floor facing Chestnut....

Untitled by shad obat, on Flickr

[Londonee]

^^As cool as 11th and Chestnut is...any Gallery photo updates? I haven't walked by there in a while and have read some commenters on other forums complaining about just how shitty the reno is looking...

[ebuilder]

Originally Posted by Londonee

^^As cool as 11th and Chestnut is...any Gallery photo updates? I haven't walked by there in a while and have read some commenters on other forums complaining about just how shitty the reno is looking...

I think the main complaint is the upper half of the façade has been untouched in most locations. I think the street level stuff looks good. The new multi story grand entrance at 9th street also looks good.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by City Wide

All this talk about Bloomingdale's got me thinking, and I really know nothing about any of this-------Macy's and Bloomies are owned by the same parent company, how much different is there between the two stores and is there enough of a separate market to support two large department stores within in 10 blocks of each other?

And why all the talk about Bloomingdale's, and not some store owned by a different company, like Nordstrom? They certainly have shown a willingness to enter a urban market in NYC

Consider automobile manufacturers. Macy's is like a Toyota and Bloomingdale's is like a Lexus. Same parent company but different brands for different demographics.

[Justin7]

Cool new fact I just learned: Macy's HQ is one of the ugliest buildings in the country.

Does Macy's own the Wanamaker's name?

[Busy Bee]

Wanamaker's, Strawbridge's and a veritable who's who of legendary department store nameplates across the nation were acquired by Macy's and Federated in 2005 and the following year were ostensibly murdered by Federated in favor of destroying local character and history and blanketing the country in Macy's banality.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by ebuilder

I think the main complaint is the upper half of the façade has been untouched in most locations. I think the street level stuff looks good. The new multi story grand entrance at 9th street also looks good.

1487, is that you?

I just took a walk by and overall it's looking pretty meh - and it's mediocrity is only reinforced by how awesome East Market has turned out both from a design and a materials standpoint.

Right now, the facade looks like a mess of weird panels, weird colors, weird textures - none of it feels modern and sharp. Portions of it are bright, white metallic panelling that resemble a shiny new KMart circa 1986. The windows make up such a small relative portion of the surface area of the reno that it just feels cheap and dated. It's hard to get a full picture till it's cleaned and the digital signs are added to (potentially) blind us from the awful panelling.

[Londonee]

Some pictures I took:

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Londonee

1487, is that you?

I just took a walk by and overall it's looking pretty meh - and it's mediocrity is only reinforced by how awesome East Market has turned out both from a design and a materials standpoint.

Right now, the facade looks like a mess of weird panels, weird colors, weird textures - none of it feels modern and sharp. Portions of it are bright, white metallic panelling that resemble a shiny new KMart circa 1986. The windows make up such a small relative portion of the surface area of the reno that it just feels cheap and dated. It's hard to get a full picture till it's cleaned and the digital signs are added to (potentially) blind us from the awful panelling.

Yeah, they HAVE to have something planned for the upper levels. It looks filthy. I think this design is a miss but as long as they do the whole building, I'm willing to hold off judgement until the sidewalks are back and they're moving in.

Can't wait to see East Market done. That development is a home run.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^They chose white for portions of the lower facade. Soon enough it will look filthy and nicely match the upper portion.