Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

No one is suggesting that this be built tomorrow. Common sense says the population of Gatineau will grow so what is fine today may not be fine tomorrow, so having a plan is a good thing.

And given Gatineau's population and growth rate, this is not a real concern for decades.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

First, there is a direct cost to Ottawa taxpayers for transferring all STO riders at Bayview. We will need to purchase, maintain and operate additional trains. Reducing the number of STO buses downtown saves nothing.

It saves the STO a huge amount of money. In theory they could pass some of that on to OC Transpo as a thank you. Admittedly there are no guarantees that would happen though.

Admittedly extra trains would be needed over time. Assuming everyone who uses it weren't planning on taking the train anyway and are heading towards downtown, a an articulated bus is runs ever 3 minutes across the bridge and they each have 90 passengers, that is 1800 passengers in an hour. Assuming the LRT can do a round trip in 1 hour (after stage 2, not all trains will be going from one end to the other), that means 6 extra 300 passenger trains, resulting in 3 extra double trains per hour.

Now that assumes everyone is going downtown, which isn't a valid assumption, especially as the DND Carling campus grows. Having fast, frequent buses to Bayview, avoiding downtown completely would be a boon for those working at DND Carling, especially after Stage 2 LRT.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How can we justify spending a huge amount of money on the POW bridge for a small minority of STO riders heading south or west from Bayview?

Transport Canada has made it clear, if we want to keep the bridge, we need to spend a huge amount of money to fix it up now anyway. I don't know, but I expect the incremental cost to allow buses on it would be relatively small.

The other options of course are to abandon the bridge or let MOOSE buy it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It saves the STO a huge amount of money.

They may save some. "huge amount"? That's really debatable.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Admittedly extra trains would be needed over time. Assuming everyone who uses it weren't planning on taking the train anyway and are heading towards downtown, a an articulated bus is runs ever 3 minutes across the bridge and they each have 90 passengers, that is 1800 passengers in an hour. Assuming the LRT can do a round trip in 1 hour (after stage 2, not all trains will be going from one end to the other), that means 6 extra 300 passenger trains, or 3 extra double trains per hour.

3 double trains is hardly a trivial thing. It's just under 10% of the entire LRV fleet today. Moreover, that capacity would be being injected at a point that will see peak ridership on the system.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Now that assumes everyone is going downtown, which isn't a valid assumption, especially as the DND Carling campus grows. Having fast, frequent buses to Bayview, avoiding downtown completely would be a boon for those working at DND Carling, especially after Stage 2 LRT.

STO says 73% of their riders will see reductions in travel time under their new routings. Your post would imply that you know better than they do, how many riders are westbound.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Transport Canada has made it clear, if we want to keep the bridge, we need to spend a huge amount of money to fix it up now anyway. I don't know, but I expect the incremental cost to allow buses on it would be relatively small.

This is by far the most valid reason for conversion of the bridge. If we're going to spend anyway, might as well get something out of it.

Originally Posted by roger1818

The other options of course are to abandon the bridge or let MOOSE buy it.

I honestly doubt MOOSE has the funds to buy the bridge. They don't have any serious investors that we know of. And their last major potential (LeMine) fell through.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Because the end game is not that small minority, but an effort to move all STO buses there once the PoW is restored and Bayview gets the bus bays to accommodate all those STO transfers.

Read between the lines. Kitchissippi wants all STO buses gone from the core. Not just a "small minority". After all, there's no business case to rehabilitate the PoW bridge for a third of STO's cross-river traffic.

LOL. You've got your arms flailing there blurring the truth.

So you've established that the PoW bridge is virtually useless for transit to Gatineau, what good is it for? Why don't we just decommission it as a railway then turn it into a ped/bike bridge? My "pro-bicycling ideology" doesn't mind this one bit.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

STO says 73% of their riders will see reductions in travel time under their new routings. Your post would imply that you know better than they do, how many riders are westbound.

Those transferring to LRT (in either direction) will also see a reduction in travel time with the new routing as they won't have to walk several blocks to Lyon Station, so would be included in STO's stats. A Bayview transfer would save them even more time.

Also, those numbers are based on past travel patterns. DND is still moving into the Carling campus, so not many are travelling there, yet.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I honestly doubt MOOSE has the funds to buy the bridge.

True, but it is still theoretically an option.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Those transferring to LRT (in either direction) will also see a reduction in travel time with the new routing as they won't have to walk several blocks to Lyon Station, so would be included in STO's stats. A Bayview transfer would save them even more time.

Also, those numbers are based on past travel patterns. DND is still moving into the Carling campus, so not many are travelling there, yet.

The buses travelling to downtown Ottawa, also pass Terrasse de Chaudiere and Place du Portage in Hull. It sounds like we will have to duplicate service to accommodate a Bayview transfer. I am not sure how we end up saving time for those destined for downtown Ottawa other than possibly not having to deal with Hull bound passengers. However, we need to allow for perhaps 5 minutes lost for the transfer itself, including time to disembark from the bus, walk to the train platform and wait for the next train.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The buses travelling to downtown Ottawa, also pass Terrasse de Chaudiere and Place du Portage in Hull.

Route 200 doesn't pass Terrasse de Chaudiere (that is done by route 100 instead). Instead it goes straight from Maisonneuve onto the Portage Bridge. A similar route could be created that runs from Rivermead.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Also, those numbers are based on past travel patterns. DND is still moving into the Carling campus, so not many are travelling there, yet.

I highly doubt very many people from east of the Gatineau River will be taking transit to DND-Carling regardless of what the options are. You'd have to make it the sweetest transit commute possible and that would likely be totally uneconomical given the low number of potential riders.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Route 200 doesn't pass Terrasse de Chaudiere (that is done by route 100 instead). Instead it goes straight from Maisonneuve onto the Portage Bridge. A similar route could be created that runs from Rivermead.

Not only that, but those Ottawa bound Rapibuses, and Gatineau bound Rapibuses departing Ottawa have a closed-door policy in Hull between Portage bridge and Montcalm station.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I highly doubt very many people from east of the Gatineau River will be taking transit to DND-Carling regardless of what the options are. You'd have to make it the sweetest transit commute possible and that would likely be totally uneconomical given the low number of potential riders.

I doubt anyone from east Gatineau is going to making that commute at all. If they're posted there.. they'll probably move. That would be a **brutal** commute by any method.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I doubt anyone from east Gatineau is going to making that commute at all. If they're posted there.. they'll probably move. That would be a **brutal** commute by any method.

Or find another job.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Or find another job.

The majority of people do not tend to move very often. It will take a really bad commute before action is taken unless the job is already crappy. If you are already in the government, you have all kinds of opportunities to change jobs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The majority of people do not tend to move very often. It will take a really bad commute before action is taken unless the job is already crappy. If you are already in the government, you have all kinds of opportunities to change jobs.

Yup.

From most likely to least likely:

- Endure the commute

- Change jobs

- Move house

Even military people will have some options to change jobs as they will be keeping several locations in the region other than Nortel-Carling. Including some in Gatineau.

[McC]

Its amazing how many people I've worked with endure horrifying commutes. It's not at all a coincidence that they are more likely to be women, and their spouses' commutes seem to be less horrible.

[Acajack]

After the big move, DND will have seven workplaces in Ottawa-Gatineau.

The three main ones are all in Ontario:

Carling

Downtown Ottawa

Star Top

But there will also be four in Quebec:

Hôtel-de-Ville
Sacré-Coeur
De La Carrière
Cité-des-Jeunes

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

LOL. You've got your arms flailing there blurring the truth.

I am not the one claiming there's a major crisis over STO buses clogging up the core. If there's anyone with "arms flailing there blurring the truth", you'll recognize him in the mirror.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

So you've established that the PoW bridge is virtually useless for transit to Gatineau, what good is it for? Why don't we just decommission it as a railway then turn it into a ped/bike bridge? My "pro-bicycling ideology" doesn't mind this one bit.

And perhaps, that is exactly what we should do. But given the cost, it's hardly a priority.

The truth of the matter is that both Ottawa and Gatineau have far bigger to fish to fry. And the current post-LRT STO bus route config works well for STO users and City of Ottawa planners.

If that bridge was more useful, both sides would have been planning to use it years ago.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Those transferring to LRT (in either direction) will also see a reduction in travel time with the new routing as they won't have to walk several blocks to Lyon Station, so would be included in STO's stats. A Bayview transfer would save them even more time.

Read what STO has said. They are suggesting that most users end up downtown closer to their actual destination and will walk there. They aren't necessarily transferring to the LRT at Lyon. That's the point.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Also, those numbers are based on past travel patterns. DND is still moving into the Carling campus, so not many are travelling there, yet.

As a military member, I fail to see how DND moving to Carling will have a substantial impact on those members.

1) Most DND civilians and military members live on the Ottawa side. There's a reason Orleans was referred to as "PMQ East".

2) Military members get posted in on 3-4 years cycles. Within 5 years, virtually every military member who works at the Carling campus will be living in the west end. Quite likely, many civilians will choose to move closer to work over time too.

3) People are forgetting that the Carling campus does not mean the closure of DND HQ at 101 Colonel By. The Carling campus is simply consolidating many of the DND buildings that were all over the NCR. This is part of DND's plan to consolidate their 20+ buildings into 5 main campuses: Carling, Leitrim, Star Top, Louis St-Laurent and NDHQ. Most of the jobs being moved to Carling have long been on the Ottawa side. So most of the workers there have lived on the Ottawa side.

Edit: saw that Acajack had mentioned the minor sites. And some of those are up for eventual consolidation too. Like Hotel De Ville.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I highly doubt very many people from east of the Gatineau River will be taking transit to DND-Carling regardless of what the options are. You'd have to make it the sweetest transit commute possible and that would likely be totally uneconomical given the low number of potential riders.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I doubt anyone from east Gatineau is going to making that commute at all. If they're posted there.. they'll probably move. That would be a **brutal** commute by any method.

They'll be driving. More parking at Carling than any other DND campus in Ottawa.

And again, it's only a matter of time before most of the people who work there move closer.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Or find another job.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The majority of people do not tend to move very often. It will take a really bad commute before action is taken unless the job is already crappy. If you are already in the government, you have all kinds of opportunities to change jobs.

This is something people really forget. Public servants can and will look around for different jobs if the commute becomes an issue.

Originally Posted by Acajack

After the big move, DND will have seven workplaces in Ottawa-Gatineau.

The three main ones are all in Ontario:

Carling

Downtown Ottawa

Star Top

But there will also be four in Quebec:

Hôtel-de-Ville
Sacré-Coeur
De La Carrière
Cité-des-Jeunes

Some of the latter four are tenuous. With the exception of De La Carriere, which is the Louis St-Laurent campus, the rest will either be closed or have few permanent staff attached. There's still staff in Hotel-de-Ville and Sacre-Coeur (National Printing Bureau building) because of the roof collapse at Louis St-Laurent. But long term, they will be moved. And Cite-des-Jeunes is the Asticou centre. It has very few permament staff who would commute. People are either posted there for a year to learn languages before moving overseas. In which case they live close by if posted in or will commute for a year. Or they attend professional development courses there which are a few weeks long. So they commute to the location for that short duration. They also have parking. Whenever, I've had a course there, I've driven, and so did everyone else in the class. Whenever I've been there, I don't see many students taking transit.


DND has a firm goal to reduce as many locations as possible. And they are working hard to consolidate to the main 5 campuses. Whatever is left, a few offices here or there, will not be enough staff to be major drivers for transit usage.