Rural Commuter Rail

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Politicians were happy to go along too. It was just the zeitgeist of the era.

Quite possibly. I wasn't in Ottawa (or even alive) at the time. As I said, it doesn't matter as the NCC can do whatever they want without approval from the city.

The other thing Ottawa lacked is satellite cities of any size to provide destinations for trains to go, which sped up the process of shuttering train services.

While certainly true today, back then was Ottawa's any different from other similar sized cities in that regard? Don't forget the Greber Plan was to decentralizing government offices, putting offices in various locations to (in his mind) eliminate congestion as not everyone would be driving to the same destination.

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by steveintoronto

@acottawa writes:
CTA does regulate it. And the Don Spur is connected one end and is still used for work trains. When the Belleville underpass was reconstructed this last Summer, Metrolinx were required to reinstall rail right after. And they installed heavier rail than the original.

Metrolinx did not install heavier rail than the original on the Belleville Overpass for the Don spur. In fact, they simply reinstalled the original rail that's date stamped from the 1950s. If you don't believe me, I'll post a picture showing the date stamp.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by steveintoronto

It's the responsibility of the Feds. The NCC's policy is to use the bridge for rail, I quoted their reference yesterday, and they've already pledged half the cost of renovating the bridge. Ownership should be completely ceded to them along with costs. The City of Ottawa should be recompensed for what they paid for it plus inflation.

To my knowledge (and I follow local media fairly closely) the NCC has never offered a cent to for the purchase, repair or fund the operation of a service on the PoW bridge.

I think the Act gives an outdated impression of what the NCC does. The NCC hasn't used any of its railway-related powers in decades (they were there to facilitate the removal of railways, once that mission was accomplished they had no more interest). There is nothing related to heavy rail or the PoW bridge in their latest annual report.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/ncc-ccn/documents/annualreport2015-16_e_web.pdf?mtime=20170502093141

The federal government has not provided the NCC funds to do anything related to railways in decades.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While certainly true today, back then was Ottawa's any different from other similar sized cities in that regard?

I think the Ottawa area is different. In SW Ontario or along the lakeshore there are good sized towns and cities at regular intervals (and were in the post war era). Smiths Falls was a good sized town (that still has rail service) but the rest were pretty small. Ottawa suburbs (Kanata, Orleans, Barrhaven) tended not to be built around established towns.

[steveintoronto]

Very short on time, many thanks Allandale for confirming the Don Spur tracks were replaced.

The NCC had offered to share a third of the cost of refurbishment of the PoW Bridge, but what's most important at this point is the future plan.

As posted prior with complete reference:

The Plan for Canada's Capital
The National Capital Commission is proud to present the Plan for Canada’s Capital, 2017–2067, the signature planning framework that will shape the vision for the nation’s capital until Canada’s bicentennial in 2067.

MILESTONE 17
IMPROVED INTERPROVINCIAL
TRANSPORTATION
The NCC will collaborate with the cities, transport
authorities and various community groups in the
Capital Region to continue the development of
multi-modal and interprovincial connections and
better transit integration. An initial element may be
a project by the City of Ottawa to create a multi-use
pathway across the Prince of Wales railway bridge
connecting Ottawa and Gatineau. In the medium
term, the NCC will advocate for the construction of a
full public transit connection on this bridge in order
to integrate the transit systems of both cities on their
primary north–south axis.

70 (paper page number, pdf is 79)
http://capital2067.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/PFCC-English-complete-optimized.pdf

First the City must decide what they want to do with it. I'll have more comment later with reference and context.

[steveintoronto]

Unable to suss how to post the image that goes with the link I provided above, but NCC's report pic on that page shows a heavy rail locomotive hauled passenger consist crossing the bridge with a cycle/walkway attached to the bridge.

I'd post the pic but not familiar with this BB software.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by steveintoronto

The NCC had offered to share a third of the cost of refurbishment of the PoW Bridge, but what's most important at this point is the future plan.

I would love to hear where you heard that they wanted to share a third of the cost. The quote you provided only indicates that they want to "collaborate" with other parties, but that doesn't necessarily imply any money.

Originally Posted by steveintoronto

Unable to suss how to post the image that goes with the link I provided above, but NCC's report pic on that page shows a heavy rail locomotive hauled passenger consist crossing the bridge with a cycle/walkway attached to the bridge.

Extracting photos from PDFs is a bit tricky, but doable. I was in the process of doing it when I found the same picture on the OBJ's website.



Not sure if it is a heavy rail locomotive. It doesn't look all that different to an Bombardier Talent or an Alstom Coradia LINT to me (just a bit of artistic expression).

[steveintoronto]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I would love to hear where you heard that they wanted to share a third of the cost. The quote you provided only indicates that they want to "collaborate" with other parties, but that doesn't necessarily imply any money.

The money has not been budgeted, but was mentioned in an official release. I'll find it later and post reference.

Not sure if it is a heavy rail locomotive. It doesn't look all that different to an Bombardier Talent or an Alstom Coradia LINT to me (just a bit of artistic expression).

Both of which are designed for and run on heavy rail. In Germany, the Talents are run on mainline intermixed with Regional and perhaps ICE. I'll allow @Urban-Sky to elaborate on that.

DB Regionalbahn Rheinland GmbH (Euregiobahn, Aachen Transport Authority) ordered 26 two-car Diesel Multiple UnitsTALENT Class 643.2 in December 2000. As part of the TALENT family, the vehicle is characterized by an attractive design and a high level of riding comfort. Wide doors and low-floor entries on a platform level height of 800 mm enable rapid and safe passenger exchange. The two-car TALENT also has a multi-purpose area providing adequate space for bicycles, prams and wheelchairs. The vehicles are equipped with train protection systems for both Germany and the Netherlands and operate in cross-border services.

https://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/projects/project.talent-germany.html

Classified as heavy rail according to UIC standards, the Talent is a two-, three- or four-part articulated railcar with Jacobs bogies.[...] They are used by mainline railways in Germany, Austria and Norway. More than 260 are in service worldwide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Talent

Coradia Lint regional train
Coradia Lint is a modern, powerful and proven low-floor diesel multiple unit. It operates on non-electrified lines and meets today’s market realities in regional rail, offering operators the balance they need between uniformity and diversity.
With over 900 trains sold, Coradia Lint is Alstom’s best-selling regional train.

http://www.alstom.com/products-services/...ns/products/coradia-lint-regional-train/

Call the vehicles what you will, but they're running on heavy rail in Ottawa that is still certified as such, and will remain so unless deemed otherwise.

The point remains, NCC foresee and promote the use of the PoW Bridge for heavy rail transit. There's no specific mention of budgeting for it at this time, but it is part of their official prospectus.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I would love to hear where you heard that they wanted to share a third of the cost. The quote you provided only indicates that they want to "collaborate" with other parties, but that doesn't necessarily imply any money.



Extracting photos from PDFs is a bit tricky, but doable. I was in the process of doing it when I found the same picture on the OBJ's website.



Not sure if it is a heavy rail locomotive. It doesn't look all that different to an Bombardier Talent or an Alstom Coradia LINT to me (just a bit of artistic expression).

It seems to be based on a Siemens ICE train. I wouldn't read into it that we're getting HSR across the bridge, it was just what they thought looked good.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Catenary

It seems to be based on a Siemens ICE train.

True, and given Ottawa relationship with Siemens, it is unlikely for it to be used.

I wouldn't read into it that we're getting HSR across the bridge, it was just what they thought looked good.

That was kind of my point. The text says "a full public transit connection on this bridge." It was likely artistic expression to use a sleek, futuristic looking train than a bus but all options are open.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by steveintoronto

In Germany, the Talents are run on mainline intermixed with Regional and perhaps ICE. I'll allow @Urban-Sky to elaborate on that.

Correct, Talent trains mix with everything from freight over commuter trains, regional trains and InterCitys to HSR like Thalys and ICE.

Here some pictures:

- Euregiobahn train (Talent) meeting a locomotive-hauled doubledecker train on a double-tracked main line:

Source: Bahnbilder.de

- Euregiobahn train (Talent) waiting on same platform at Köln Hbf (Cologne main station):

Source: Bahnbilder.de

Edit: no idea why the pictures don't load to the post (presumably because of the "~" in the URL), but clicking on the linked source seems to work...

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Correct, Talent trains mix with everything from freight over commuter trains, regional trains and InterCitys to HSR like Thalys and ICE.

Here some pictures:

- Euregiobahn train (Talent) meeting a locomotive-hauled doubledecker train on a double-tracked main line:

Source: Bahnbilder.de

- Euregiobahn train (Talent) waiting on same platform at Köln Hbf (Cologne main station):

Source: Bahnbilder.de

Edit: no idea why the pictures don't load to the post (presumably because of the "~" in the URL), but clicking on the linked source seems to work...

In Europe. They do not meet North American crash standards.

[acottawa]

A pencil crayon drawing of a generic looking train in a "vision" document means exactly nothing.

Look at documents that actually matter. Is there any money for the bridge or services on it in the Annual Report (which includes the 5 year budget plan)? Is there any mention in the federal budget? Is it referenced in the Heritage Minister's mandate letter? Is it in the platform of the governing party?

Besides, even the "vision" doesn't say much. The short term strategy is to "create a multi-use pathway across the Prince of Wales railway bridge" (which BTW would involve ripping up the rails and discontinuing the line) and over the "medium term" (which in a 50 year plan could mean decades) the NCC hopes to "advocate" for "construction of a full public transit connection on this bridge."

No commitment to heavy rail, no commitment of money, just some generic advocacy.

[steveintoronto]

Originally Posted by acottawa

In Europe. They do not meet North American crash standards.

This is about to change, sooner than I had originally thought. It's a good point, but the first glimmer of hope was TC approving the Talents for Ottawa!

Ottawa, Ontario
Summary
Organization

City of Ottawa — Transportation Utilities and Public Works Department, OC Transpo
Status

Started 2001, extended to 2005
Overview

[The O-Train was Ottawa’s first experience with light rail transit. The O-Train travels an 8-km track past five stations, two of which connect to the city’s bus rapid transit system (the “Transitway”), over two bridges and through a tunnel beneath Dow’s Lake. The line serves Carleton University, a major employment centre, and a shopping mall in a densely populated neighbourhood.

The O-Train was initiated to assess the technical feasibility of using an existing rail corridor for rapid transit, to validate expectations about ridership, performance and cost, and to allow proper analysis of possible larger-scale implementation.
[...]
The O-Train travels on an 8-km length of existing freight rail track, and connects to the city’s bus rapid transit system (the “Transitway”) on each end of the line. The existing corridor is owned by Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR). The line serves Carleton University, a major employment centre, and a shopping mall in a densely populated neighbourhood.

The pilot project is unique by North American standards and involves four “firsts.” It is the first time that light rail
passenger trains had been mixed with heavy rail traffic on an existing rail network, and the first time passenger rail services had been operated by a single operator. In addition, this was the first time Bombardier Talent DMU trains had been used anywhere in North America, and the first trains driven by bus operators.

[...]
The O-Train was initiated to:

Assess the technical feasibility of using an existing rail corridor for rapid transit
Validate expectations about ridership, performance and cost
Allow proper analysis of possible larger-scale implementation
[...]
Negotiating an agreement with CPR. With no prior experience in light rail, the region needed considerable outside expertise to implement the pilot project. Municipal officials negotiated a lump sum build/design contract with CPR, which gave them access to CPR’s knowledge and experience and enabled the region to control the project costs and implement the service quickly.

Partner expertise. There were no examples in North America of a single operator passenger train, so municipal officials relied on the expertise of its partners to design and implement the O-Train. More than a dozen partners lent their experience and knowledge to the project. Some of them include:

CPR, as owner of the corridor, engaged Morrison Hershfield (an engineering and management firm) to manage the project. This included design and construction administration, upgrading the lines and maintenance facilities, and building the rail stations.
Bombardier provided and maintains the trains and, with AR Concepts, developed and installed the signaling system.
Transport Canada worked with the city to develop an operating plan that met federal legislation requirements under the Rail Safety Act. The plan includes operating rules, emergency procedures, employee training programs, and a Safety Management System.
[...]
The 8-km line. Prior to the O-Train project, the CPR freight line and its rail yard were seldom used and in poor condition. CPR upgraded the line to accommodate the O-Train, and no other trains use the track except when the O-Train is not operating.

The CPR track crosses two other active rail lines, making the signalling and braking systems (discussed below) important safety elements.
[...]
Bombardier Talent Diesel Multiple Units (DMU). Three Bombardier Talent DMU trains were commissioned. The trains were built in Germany and shipped first to Montreal before arriving in Ottawa in January 2001.

The trains use Clear No. 1 diesel fuel, which contains less sulphur than other grades. The trains comply with exhaust emission requirements of Euro-II contaminant standards (the standards set by the European Union).

Each train weighs 72,000 kg, is 48 metres long, with seating capacity for 137 passengers and standing capacity for 150.

Each train is equipped with two four-stroke diesel engines, water-cooled in-line motors, and a horizontal-shaft design with exhaust gas turbocharger and charge cooler. Top speed is 120 km/hr.
[...]
Recognition. The O-Train has won several awards:

Canadian Urban Transit Association’s Corporate Innovation Award (June 2002)
American Public Works Association’s Project of the Year Award (January 2003)
FCM-CH2M Hill Sustainable Community Award, in the sustainable transportation category (May 2003)

Participants

City of Ottawa
Transport Canada
Human Resources Development Canada
Canadian Pacific Railway
Canadian National Railway
VIA Rail
Carleton University
Public Works and Government Services Canada
National Capital Commission
Ottawa Police Services
Women’s Initiative for a Safe Environment
Transport 2000
Canadian Transport Agency
Local citizens and advocacy groups
[...]
The Bombardier trains were better suited for long distance commuter service. Although the trains were a good choice for this pilot project, as the city proceeds with a more in-depth Ottawa Rapid Transit Expansion Plan Study, alternative vehicles and propulsion systems will be studied. Several requirements including turning radius for inner city use, platform height, train acceleration and vibration would be problematic for downtown service. The new trains being studied are lighter and can be mixed with downtown traffic.
[...]

http://data.tc.gc.ca/archive/eng/programs/environment-utsp-otrainlightrailproject-973.htm

It's about to change even further. I can't offer proof from the very secretive TC, but if it doesn't change (like the US has done in various jurisdictions, California as a whole, and also cities in Colorado and others) then all of Metrolinx' plans for RER as now being proffered are in jeopardy.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by steveintoronto

This is about to change, sooner than I had originally thought. It's a good point, but the first glimmer of hope was TC approving the Talents for Ottawa!

http://data.tc.gc.ca/archive/eng/programs/environment-utsp-otrainlightrailproject-973.htm

It's about to change even further. I can't offer proof from the very secretive TC, but if it doesn't change (like the US has done in various jurisdictions, California as a whole, and also cities in Colorado and others) then all of Metrolinx' plans for RER as now being proffered are in jeopardy.

Yes, both Canadian and American regulators have approved exemptions (usually in instances where there is little or no interaction with heavy rail trains). I don't know if there is going to be a general change in policy.

[steveintoronto]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A pencil crayon drawing of a generic looking train in a "vision" document means exactly nothing.

There's a lot more than that.

Pg 33 and 71 make explicit reference to rail across the bridge.

But you've set your own trap by stating what you have. You agree there's a plan to save the bridge. The logical extension of that plan is whether it includes rail or not. The City seems to believe it does. And yet there's (insert your own rant) to prove it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by steveintoronto

There's a lot more than that.

Pg 33 and 71 make explicit reference to rail across the bridge.

But you've set your own trap by stating what you have. You agree there's a plan to save the bridge. The logical extension of that plan is whether it includes rail or not. The City seems to believe it does. And yet there's (insert your own rant) to prove it.

An aspirational statement on a document that has no legal weight, no political weight and very little policy weight is not a "plan." A plan would be a line in this afternoon's budget announcing $200M for the NCC to ready the bridge for rail services.

As the saying goes “A goal without a plan is just a wish.”

[steveintoronto]

Originally Posted by acottawa

An aspirational statement on a document that has no legal weight, no political weight and very little policy weight is not a "plan." A plan would be a line in this afternoon's budget announcing $200M for the NCC to ready the bridge for rail services.

As the saying goes “A goal without a plan is just a wish.”

You exactly make the point. What you consider a plan, and what the plan is are obviously two different realities.
"NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION THE PLAN FOR CANADA’S CAPITAL, 2017 TO 2067" I take for what it is.

Absolutely true, there's no set budget for it at this time. There's no set budget for many plans we have and need.

Logic alone dictates the bridge must remain, and since it must (the costs to do otherwise would be horrendous, both fiscally and to the goals of the NCC visually and functionally) a way will be found to attain federal ownership and implement their vision as detailed in their "plan".

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

An aspirational statement on a document that has no legal weight, no political weight and very little policy weight is not a "plan." A plan would be a line in this afternoon's budget announcing $200M for the NCC to ready the bridge for rail services.

As the saying goes “A goal without a plan is just a wish.”

Pretty well all "plans" are like that.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The short term strategy is to "create a multi-use pathway across the Prince of Wales railway bridge" (which BTW would involve ripping up the rails and discontinuing the line)"

Not necessarily. If you look at a picture of the Rapibus bridge over the Gatineau River (which is on the same rail line) they raised the deck to be level with the rails, leaving a gap for the flanges and then filled that gap with rubber strips. That way if a railway wished to use the bridge, they could just remove those strips quickly and easily. Admittedly if that happened, they would have to close the bridge to pedestrians and cyclists.

Originally Posted by steveintoronto

Logic alone dictates the bridge must remain, and since it must (the costs to do otherwise would be horrendous, both fiscally and to the goals of the NCC visually and functionally) a way will be found to attain federal ownership and implement their vision as detailed in their "plan".

I don't see why it absolutely must remain, but I do agree that it most likely will and we should find a good use for it.

If the NCC wants to spend money to implement their plan/goal/wish, by all means let them. They don't need to own the bridge for that to happen. The city tried to get financial support a few years back for such a project and no one was interested at the time. Having said that, if the NCC were to take ownership, it would get the city off the hook for any future costs if(when?) the political climate changes and external funding dries up. The problem is that while the NCC talks a good talk, getting them to put money where their mouth is, is always an issue. Just look how long it took them to do anything with LeBreton Flats.