Great Lakes Cities

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Urban Midwest:

You're cherrypicking. That isn't typical New Haven. New Haven has plenty of bricky, rowhouse blocks. In fact they dominate the older neighborhoods.

I can show pics of Hong Kong that show empty forests and pics of Alaska that show urbanity. It doesn't mean Hong Kong is rural and Alaska urban.

This is typical urban New Haven:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3155869,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

It doesn't look anything like a typical small city streetscape in, say, Michigan, or Indiana. It couldn't be anywhere in the U.S. but the Northeast Corridor:

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

You're cherrypicking. That isn't typical New Haven. And New Haven isn't typical Northeast Corridor.
.

No I’m not. Yes it is. Much of inner residential New Haven looks exactly like this. So does Springfield, MA, Manchester, Hartford, etc.

Northeast does not equal “Northeast Corridor”

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

St. Louis (before urban renewal) had row homes for days. Same with Cincinnati. Chicago is mostly brick, detached construction, but before the fire, there were row homes constructed of brick. St. Louis has a lot of brick construction as well. East St. Louis, IL was the same way..

St. Louis and Cincy aren't Great Lakes cities.

Chicago is and is not that bricky. We're talking overall characteristics; obviously there are exceptions. Chicago does not have similar street level feel as Philly. I think pretty much everyone would agree Chicago has wider streets, narrower sidewalks, differing setbacks and ground coverage, less brick, and less attached housing.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

No I’m not. Yes it is. Much of inner residential New Haven looks exactly like this. So does Springfield, MA, Manchester, Hartford, etc.

No, it simply isn't typical housing. You cherrypicked. That isn't how inner city New Haven typically looks.

Originally Posted by pj3000

Northeast does not equal “Northeast Corridor”

Well that's what I'm talking about. If you want to talk about Buffalo or Erie, be my guest. Nothing I'm talking about relates to Erie (which is Great Lakes and basically Midwest, more or less).

[pj3000]

^ yes, it is. Again, most of the city’s residential neighborhoods look like this. You’re picking out A very specific section. Plus, you have zero credibility on here.

I’m talking about New Haven and other cities in New England I named.

[IrishIllini]

Originally Posted by Crawford

St. Louis and Cincy aren't Great Lakes cities.

Chicago is and is not that bricky. We're talking overall characteristics; obviously there are exceptions. Chicago does not have similar street level feel as Philly. I think pretty much everyone would agree Chicago has wider streets, narrower sidewalks, differing setbacks and ground coverage, less brick, and less attached housing.

You said urban Midwest in your post, which would include St. Louis and Cincinnati. Chicago is heavy on the brick construction. Streets wider? Yes. Sidewalks narrower? Not really. Yes, larger setbacks. More detached housing.

[the urban politician]

I don’t agree that the east coast is “brickier” than Chicago, although it is “brickier” than Detroit or Cleveland.

Sure, Manhattan and Brooklyn are heavy on the masonry. But in Queens you have miles and miles of frame homes. And in Philly? Go to Manayunk.

Chicago has lots of frame buildings, but for the past 150 years much of that building stock has been getting demo’d and replaced with masonry construction. That continues to occur today.

But I concur with Crawford on one thing: the East Coast cities have narrower streets and row houses. That’s just part of their DNA. Midwestern cities just seem to value their space more.

[shappy]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

but I get the 'slightly older than detroit/cleveland' typology now. the inner core of toronto seems to have less of the machine-era workers cottages for immigrants, black people, and southern migrants, and looks more like a bricky St louis/albany/syracuse/rochester/pittsburgh, maybe cincy (pre-'renewal'). but if you go outside of the core/western part of the inner city I see more resemblance to the great lakes cities.

Never heard the term "machine-era workers cottages" so I'm not sure what you mean.

There's also the central east end which is generally a decade or two older than the west end and I think this is where Toronto's UK influence comes out the most. Many of the southern/eastern Ontario towns/cities can look quite similar. Not sure if any of the US Great Lakes have a similar look:

https://goo.gl/maps/UQDiEP2WRjD2

https://goo.gl/maps/owLejsYat2n

https://goo.gl/maps/kHYZccRQjMo

https://goo.gl/maps/fLVLyLHgAtT2

https://goo.gl/maps/yikwhKip63U2

https://goo.gl/maps/RXC4ihUMKDv

https://goo.gl/maps/Muh27J3Vr932

Yorkville area just north of Bloor as well:
https://goo.gl/maps/roSo9hdnBCR2

https://goo.gl/maps/QKtUgceoCUA2

And built density of a portion of the central west end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OlIBjZvI-U

But yeah, I agree that neighbourhoods built since the early 1900s resemble what you might find in some of the other Great Lakes cities.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Docere

The Pittsburgh photo does resemble the Victorian neighborhoods of Toronto quite a bit.

Some of the nearby streets have businesses scattered on them as well. Or even mini-business districts. The main business district of Oakland is a bit more "big city" than Kensington. The area is grimy because it's a student slum though, which is I take it different from Toronto.

Other business districts which have some similarity are Ellsworth in Shadyside, and Murray Avenue in Squirrel Hill. Basically the places where residential streets were retrofitted into business areas in the early 20th century, rather than the actual Victorian business districts.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

This is typical urban New Haven:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3155869,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

It doesn't look anything like a typical small city streetscape in, say, Michigan, or Indiana. It couldn't be anywhere in the U.S. but the Northeast Corridor:

That's a business district in New Haven though. I mean, I lived in New Haven, and there is literally one intact block of brick rowhouses left (here). You can find short stands elsewhere in Wooster Square and East Rock, but they were largely wiped out by urban renewal. Basically everywhere in New England turned away from brick rowhouse construction much earlier than the Mid Atlantic - pretty much as soon as the triple-decker developed as a housing typology. Only in Boston was there enough of the early to mid 19th century brick vernacular to survive urban renewal.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Some of the nearby streets have businesses scattered on them as well. Or even mini-business districts. The main business district of Oakland is a bit more "big city" than Kensington. The area is grimy because it's a student slum though, which is I take it different from Toronto.

Other business districts which have some similarity are Ellsworth in Shadyside, and Murray Avenue in Squirrel Hill. Basically the places where residential streets were retrofitted into business areas in the early 20th century, rather than the actual Victorian business districts.

Atwood St. - fitting!

[Docere]

Toronto's pre-war residential neighborhoods don't really have that "city of big shoulders" thing.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

This is what the majority of inner city neighborhoods look like in the Midwestern city of New Haven, Connecticut.

One could easily substitute New Haven in the above sentence with Manchester, NH or Springfield, MA or...

"Anywhere, northeast" When I first saw 1st photo, thought it was one from Utica.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

those that looks like Short north, columbus, not queens or brooklyn IMO.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9905175,...u06qlqPdU8UwNoL9FYsug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9836352,...Xc51AdYySbg5gEWj54pLQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9391897,...Ewe7HFn3Aaax-CkJoiUmQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Maybe in built look, but Kensington Market seems much more denser and vibrant than Short North.

[Docere]

I don't see the resemblance at all between Kensington Market and those photos from Columbus.

[Docere]

Here is the easternmost Great Lakes city - Kingston, Ontario (which pulls above its weight for a city of 150,000 or so):

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2294113,-...aoF_IB5yDq18WqYuVHasQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2298062,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2266075,-...tch%3D-3%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2307115,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2292728,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2283394,-...FG6VoPsrbN6eIp1cWEf-!2e10!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2283637,-...lf4Rcw_bQy7n9dRQ!2e0!3e11!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2296974,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.2289083,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Crawford

This is typical urban New Haven:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3155869,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

It doesn't look anything like a typical small city streetscape in, say, Michigan, or Indiana. It couldn't be anywhere in the U.S. but the Northeast Corridor:

Actually that random Cincinnati streetview someone shared earlier looks really similar to this... don't you agree?

This IMO could be Maryland or Ohio, it's really not strictly New England.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by eschaton

That's a business district in New Haven though. I mean, I lived in New Haven, and there is literally one intact block of brick rowhouses left (here). You can find short stands elsewhere in Wooster Square and East Rock, but they were largely wiped out by urban renewal. Basically everywhere in New England turned away from brick rowhouse construction much earlier than the Mid Atlantic - pretty much as soon as the triple-decker developed as a housing typology. Only in Boston was there enough of the early to mid 19th century brick vernacular to survive urban renewal.

Lots of stuff like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6530224,...VpwbFwxW9EAvfqNeYY41A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

in Albany and in many neighborhoods they're all brick. (I'm aware there's one wooden one in this example, but the few other streetviews I picked where I knew it's all brick were full of leafy trees at the time of streetview, so I figure this one will do).

I think it's common pretty much everywhere in the NE (to find surviving intact neighborhoods of those), not only Boston nowadays. Now reading your post again you may have meant to limit your statement to New England in which case I won't dare contradict you

[JManc]

Albany, Troy and a few towns in and around the Capital District is are oddities in Upstate as they have the brownstones and architecture more in common with NYC and the Mid-Atlantic than they do with the interior northeast and upper New England. Too bad much of Albany is run down...

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by JManc

Albany, Troy and a few towns in and around the Capital District is are oddities in Upstate as they have the brownstones and architecture more in common with NYC and the Mid-Atlantic than they do with the interior northeast and upper New England. Too bad much of Albany is run down...

Yeah, it seems they have more NYC influence due to being in the capital region than surrounding areas. Though, from what I remember, Schenectady is more New England/interior NE style.

Even down the Hudson (closer to NYC) in cities like Kingston and Poughkeepsie, the residential vernacular and layout is more New England/interior NE... or "Midwestern" as some continue to refer to is as.