Great Lakes Cities

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

yeah, kind of. midwestern cities often have wide, big boned downtowns...often the cities feel like they were laid out for thousands, if not millions more people than are there...even chicago. broad expanses of big infrastructure, huge swaths of industrial or logistics, big guilded age projects like parks, blvds, endless blocks of middle class built homes in the city and suburbs. there is definitely a kind of pan-midwesternism, although regional differences between the lake, river, and prairie cities exist with regards to vernacular. it’s not a place where people complain about there “being too many damned people,” like you hear in say california or increasing the southeast. you can feel the contrast when you leave the midwest and are in a city like nashville, and somehow, suddenly, the city feels improbably cramped with cars and close-in suburbs. i’ve felt the same thing in austin.

And that's where Toronto (and Hamilton and most of the rest of the Canadian side) really stands apart from the American side of the Great Lakes. For better or worse, it doesn't have any of that gilded age monumentalism. Things are haphazard, ramshackle, and tightly spaced, with, as you wonderfully put it earlier - a bunch of "spaceships" plopped down around town. Toronto was built for far fewer people than actually live here now. The whole civic trajectory of the place has basically been an accident from the start.

I think just by virtue of the Great Lakes being a trans-national region from a time when each side of the border had more palpable economic, demographic, and cultural differences will kind of invalidate the whole premise that the Great Lakes region is the one with the most uniform appearance.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

yeah, kind of. midwestern cities often have wide, big boned downtowns...often the cities feel like they were laid out for thousands, if not millions more people than are there...even chicago. broad expanses of big infrastructure, huge swaths of industrial or logistics, big guilded age projects like parks, blvds, endless blocks of middle class built homes in the city and suburbs. there is definitely a kind of pan-midwesternism, although regional differences between the lake, river, and prairie cities exist with regards to vernacular. it’s not a place where people complain about there “being too many damned people,” like you hear in say california or increasing the southeast. you can feel the contrast when you leave the midwest and are in a city like nashville, and somehow, suddenly, the city feels improbably cramped with cars and close-in suburbs. i’ve felt the same thing in austin.

By those standards, Pittsburgh is certainly not a Midwestern city, given the combination of the crazy topography, dense built form, and the relatively low levels of urban blight make most of the cities more famous neighborhoods feel very structurally dense.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by eschaton

By those standards, Pittsburgh is certainly not a Midwestern city, given the combination of the crazy topography, dense built form, and the relatively low levels of urban blight make most of the cities more famous neighborhoods feel very structurally dense.

Pittsburgh is its own thing due its unique geography.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by JManc

Pittsburgh is its own thing due its unique geography.

Since Pittsburgh is not a midwestern city, would it fall into the same region as Charleston, WV? Pittsburgh being the dominate city by far.

They are only a 3 hour car ride away from each other.
Similar topography, tree covered hills, blue collar history - steelers vs. miners
Both cities are at the confluence of rivers, both cities have declined in population since 1960 due to having similar economies up until recently.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by JManc

Pittsburgh is its own thing due its unique geography.

I wouldn't say Pittsburgh is its own thing really... just the largest, most urban representation of northeastern Appalachia.

Smaller cities in the greater region and steel towns up and down the Allegheny, Monongahela, and Ohio rivers are mini-Pittsburghs.

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Since Pittsburgh is not a midwestern city, would it fall into the same region as Charleston, WV? Pittsburgh being the dominate city by far.

They are only a 3 hour car ride away from each other.
Similar topography, tree covered hills, blue collar history - steelers vs. miners
Both cities are at the confluence of rivers, both cities have declined in population since 1960 due to having similar economies up until recently.

Same general region, sure. Hilly, industrial river cities in this area of the country share many of the same characteristics.

And the greater Pittsburgh region is just as much miners as it is steelers. They go together

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I wouldn't say Pittsburgh is its own thing really... just the largest, most urban representation of northeastern Appalachia.

Smaller cities in the greater region and steel towns up and down the Allegheny, Monongahela, and Ohio rivers are mini-Pittsburghs

Sure. I was thinking in context of major cities...Pittsburgh is in a league of its own. Wheeling is a mini-me Pittsburgh..just beat up and a fraction of the size. Has good bones and hope one day it can turn around.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

And that's where Toronto (and Hamilton and most of the rest of the Canadian side) really stands apart from the American side of the Great Lakes. For better or worse, it doesn't have any of that gilded age monumentalism.

Winnipeg (Canada's "gateway to the west") comes closer to the "monumentalism" of the cities of the US Midwest.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by JManc

Sure. I was thinking in context of major cities...Pittsburgh is in a league of its own. Wheeling is a mini-me Pittsburgh..just beat up and a fraction of the size. Has good bones and hope one day it can turn around.

Got it. Yeah, Wheeling is a cool smaller city. Like you say, good bones. It seems like there are some good things going on there. Johnstown and Cumberland are other Pittsburgh mini-mes in a way, but they're both really depressed... Johnstown really falling apart in its core... going to be tough to ever come back. Both can be pretty creepy.

[pj3000]

What is this midwestern "monumentalism" that is being talked about?

[MayDay]

^Oversized neoclassical architecture:

Cleveland:











Indianapolis:







Chicago:

[Sun Belt]

^All of those buildings and structures are awesome because that would not be built in today's world.

[JManc]

^ Cleveland has some amazing and underappreciated architecture. I love that art deco thingie on that bridge...

[MayDay]

One of eight 'Guardians of Transportation' - four bridge pylons, each containing two Guardians (one faces west, one faces east) which hold eight different vehicles. See the door sized cutout at the base? That was originally supposed to be the entrance to a subway line (tracks were built and still exist below the roadway but never used).

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by MayDay

^Oversized neoclassical architecture:

Ok, I didn't realize that was a Midwestern thing though. I mean, I've never heard that the big monumental architecture/design of the Progressive era was somehow identified as a Midwestern attribute.

[pj3000]

Cleveland's Terminal Tower is in my top 5 skyscrapers

[MayDay]

A lot of inspiration came from the 'City Beautiful' movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Beautiful_movement

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Cleveland's Terminal Tower is in my top 5 skyscrapers

Photos don't do that thing justice. Impressive in person.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by MayDay

A lot of inspiration came from the 'City Beautiful' movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Beautiful_movement

Right, I've just never heard this style or era of archtiecture referred to as "midwestern monumentalism".

I know that major midwestern cities like Chicago (Columbian Expo) and Cleveland were certainly centers of this grand neoclassical architecture and land use, but so were Philly, Pittsburgh, DC, Harrisburg... among many others, which would not be considered midwestern. I've just never heard of this described that way.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I wouldn't say Pittsburgh is its own thing really... just the largest, most urban representation of northeastern Appalachia.

Smaller cities in the greater region and steel towns up and down the Allegheny, Monongahela, and Ohio rivers are mini-Pittsburghs.

Cincinnati's topography and traditional built form is similar as well. Or is that not considered Appalachia?

Originally Posted by pj3000

Right, I've just never heard this style or era of archtiecture referred to as "midwestern monumentalism".

I know that major midwestern cities like Chicago (Columbian Expo) and Cleveland were certainly centers of this grand neoclassical architecture and land use, but so were Philly, Pittsburgh, DC, Harrisburg... among many others, which would not be considered midwestern. I've just never heard of this described that way.

It's not just the big neoclassical and art deco buildings (which were certainly built elsewhere as well - though probably not in similar concentrations) - there's the broad avenues, leafy boulevards & medians, very intentional hub & spoke street grids, generous setbacks, grand plazas & parks, and huge industrial buildings that all coalesce into a certain oversized, monumental sense of spaciousness throughout these Midwestern / Great Lakes / Plains cities.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

It's not just the big neoclassical and art deco buildings (which were certainly built elsewhere as well - though probably not in similar concentrations) - there's the broad avenues, leafy boulevards & medians, very intentional hub & spoke street grids, generous setbacks, grand plazas & parks, and huge industrial buildings that all coalesce into a certain oversized, monumental sense of spaciousness throughout these Midwestern / Great Lakes / Plains cities.

So like... Washington DC?

I get what you're saying... a lot of it sprang from the big expositions held in Chicago and St. Louis and maybe elsewhere in Midwestern cities. But that grand "monumentalism" is certainly found in DC and Philadelphia, and largely based on European grand boulevards.