Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[Arcologist]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The demand for the 2000 O-Train line, the demand for the Corkstown Bridge, and the demand for Adawe, didn't exist, either.

The Corkstown and Adawe Bridges are used a great deal, imo.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The demand for the 2000 O-Train line, the demand for the Corkstown Bridge, and the demand for Adawe, didn't exist, either.

Those bridges/lines offered clear improvements in speed and convenience over previous options. Most of the bridge proposals people have been circulating are not obviously faster or more convenient then existing routes.

You can always induce some sort of demand with new infrastructure but if there are significant expenses involved there should be some sort of policy objective underlying the proposal. This is why I have been critical of the trim road extension, for example, benefiting a few hundred park and riders does not (in my view) justify the expense or the prioritization the federal government has put on this project.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Those bridges/lines offered clear improvements in speed and convenience over previous options. Most of the bridge proposals people have been circulating are not obviously faster or more convenient then existing routes.

You can always induce some sort of demand with new infrastructure but if there are significant expenses involved there should be some sort of policy objective underlying the proposal. This is why I have been critical of the trim road extension, for example, benefiting a few hundred park and riders does not (in my view) justify the expense or the prioritization the federal government has put on this project.

The proposal floated by Aylmer and his friend Greg Fergus to link up a hypothetical Gatineau rail line to the Confed Line at Rideau via perhaps a modified or expanded Alexandra Bridge actually makes a lot more sense than anything with Bayview/PoW/whatever-beyond, because it would more optimally serve both Ontario workers employed in Hull and tons of Quebec workers employed in Ottawa.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The proposal floated by Aylmer and his friend Greg Fergus to link up a hypothetical Gatineau rail line to the Confed Line at Rideau via perhaps a modified or expanded Alexandra Bridge actually makes a lot more sense than anything with Bayview/PoW/whatever-beyond, because it would more optimally serve both Ontario workers employed in Hull and tons of Quebec workers employed in Ottawa.

I would agree with that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The push to try to convert a derelict old bridge into a bus bridge or rail bridge seems to be driven more by the fact that it is there rather than any particular need to move passengers at that location.
.

This, this, this and this. That's exactly what is going on.

Sometimes disused or under-used pieces of infrastructure get a new lease of life that's logically self-explanatory. Like many of the freight rail corridors in the Montreal and Toronto areas.

But sometimes they don't make sense. Or it takes time to find the right use for it. Or perhaps you can't make use of them right away because there are other more pressing priorities. (That can suck though if the said infrastructure is falling apart and needs some urgent TLC if it's to remain usable at some point in the future.)

Tons of ideas have been floated around but I don't think there is an obvious transit use for PoW that works for both Ottawa and Gatineau in the cards right now.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

The Corkstown and Adawe Bridges are used a great deal, imo.

Absolutely, 100% But until they were actually built, it was impossible to guage demand, which tends to be true of transportation projects that are new construction or major reconstruction.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This, this, this and this. That's exactly what is going on.

"It is there" is why the cheap route was used for the 80s Transitway and for most of the current LRT projects, so "it is there" is not exactly a fatal argument.

Tons of ideas have been floated around but I don't think there is an obvious transit use for PoW that works for both Ottawa and Gatineau in the cards right now.

Again, maybe it's not better than some imaginary, and much more expensive and politically-difficult other future option, but it's a hell of a lot better than nothing.

Let's try it and find out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

"It is there" is why the cheap route was used for the 80s Transitway and for most of the current LRT projects, so "it is there" is not exactly a fatal argument.

.

I was actually going to mention the Transitway. It was "just there" it's true but the logic was far more self-evident as it provided an east-west route in a "region" (Ottawa-Carleton back then) that had its primary development pattern along an east-west axis. So with some additions and adjustments it could serve as an east-west spine across the region centred on the downtown core.

It wasn't totally low-hanging fruit but it was low enough and provided a solution to congestion on the Queensway towards the core which was the main transportation issue in Ottawa at that time.

It also was Ottawa's first foray into rapid transit and as such there weren't really any serious rival projects vying for investment at the time. It also didn't involve another jurisdiction in another province.

So the Transitway checked off almost all of the boxes.

Bayview-PoW isn't even close to being that type of no-brainer.

[Kitchissippi]

Unless a new transit-specific bridge or tunnel is built, using any of the existing bridges falls in to the "it is there" category.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sometimes disused or under-used pieces of infrastructure get a new lease of life that's logically self-explanatory. Like many of the freight rail corridors in the Montreal and Toronto areas.

But sometimes they don't make sense. Or it takes time to find the right use for it. Or perhaps you can't make use of them right away because there are other more pressing priorities. (That can suck though if the said infrastructure is falling apart and needs some urgent TLC if it's to remain usable at some point in the future.)

Tons of ideas have been floated around but I don't think there is an obvious transit use for PoW that works for both Ottawa and Gatineau in the cards right now.

It has been dismissed in the past on here, but I can't help but wonder if the POW bridge would actually make a good truck bridge. It would be easily connected to the A50. The problem is connecting it to the 417, which would take some imagination. I suspect it would be cheaper than the multi billion dollar project that is currently proposed though.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Unless a new transit-specific bridge or tunnel is built, using any of the existing bridges falls in to the "it is there" category.

Yes, but there is a "It is there and useful" category and "It is there and not particularly useful" category. Just because the o-train was fairly successful does not mean a similar service on one of the abandoned industrial lines would have been similarly successful. The former has numerous drivers of ridership along it while the latter does not.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Bayview-PoW isn't even close to being that type of no-brainer.

Build it and watch.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Build it and watch.

Please take a number and have a seat.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Build it and watch.

I don't think the Field of Dreams argument will convince many to invest.

[Richard Eade]

I am of the mind that it would be better to have the STO Rapibus go directly to Bayview. I am not talking about EVERY Rapibus, just a new route, say, 500.



Since the 400 bus runs only 10 minute service, I would imagine that the new 500 could also run 10 minute service. That would give a bus plenty of time to run the distance from a Terrasses de la Chaudière stop to Bayview, across a one-lane bridge. If passing is necessary, buses can do it a lot more simply than trains can.

To minimize winter maintenance required across the bridge, I would suggest lifting the existing ties and rails and installing a metal deck, similar to what is used for vehicles on the Alexandra Bridge. Since it is pourous, it will not require plowing or salting. A cantilevered extension off one side for a MUP would be a ‘nice to have’, but that should not be part of the transit budget.

As for getting to the bridge, I would suggest that the new 500 could follow the 400 route along Montcalm, but cross Laurier and follow the old rail spur route to the Prince of Wales Bridge.

The idea of using the Prince of Wales Bridge is not to ‘funnel all Gatineau traffic through Bayview’, it is to offer another choice.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I am of the mind that it would be better to have the STO Rapibus go directly to Bayview. I am not talking about EVERY Rapibus, just a new route, say, 500.



Since the 400 bus runs only 10 minute service, I would imagine that the new 500 could also run 10 minute service. That would give a bus plenty of time to run the distance from a Terrasses de la Chaudière stop to Bayview, across a one-lane bridge. If passing is necessary, buses can do it a lot more simply than trains can.

To minimize winter maintenance required across the bridge, I would suggest lifting the existing ties and rails and installing a metal deck, similar to what is used for vehicles on the Alexandra Bridge. Since it is pourous, it will not require plowing or salting. A cantilevered extension off one side for a MUP would be a ‘nice to have’, but that should not be part of the transit budget.

As for getting to the bridge, I would suggest that the new 500 could follow the 400 route along Montcalm, but cross Laurier and follow the old rail spur route to the Prince of Wales Bridge.

The idea of using the Prince of Wales Bridge is not to ‘funnel all Gatineau traffic through Bayview’, it is to offer another choice.

That's an interesting suggestion.

For the sake of comparison, the STO spent 7.1 million dollars to modify the Pont Noir across the Gatineau River so that it could be used by buses. There is a MUP on the north side but not sure if that was included in the budget.

Now, the Pont Noir was in much better shape than the PoW Bridge is.

Another thing is I think I would run the 500 down Taché from the corner of Montcalm, as there are buses-only lanes on Taché that are fairly efficient, and why not get closer to potential passengers?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't think the Field of Dreams argument will convince many to invest.

Considering it's not an "investment", that's not a fatal flaw.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Yes, but there is a "It is there and useful" category and "It is there and not particularly useful" category. Just because the o-train was fairly successful does not mean a similar service on one of the abandoned industrial lines would have been similarly successful. The former has numerous drivers of ridership along it while the latter does not.

The Prince of Wales is the only bridge in the region that has rapid transit lines immediately on either end, in a direct, straight and connectable manner. How much more "usefulness" and logic can you ask for? It doesn't have to be the one and only connection, but it certainly can be a useful one.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The Prince of Wales is the only bridge in the region that has rapid transit lines immediately on either end, in a direct, straight and connectable manner. How much more "usefulness" and logic can you ask for? It doesn't have to be the one and only connection, but it certainly can be a useful one.

The closest stations are 1.9km apart, that is the same distance as Pimisi to the Museum of History. The closest station with regular service (Montcalm) is almost 2.5 km from Bayview.

Useful to whom?

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The closest stations are 1.9km apart, that is the same distance as Pimisi to the Museum of History. The closest station with regular service (Montcalm) is almost 2.5 km from Bayview.

Useful to whom?

At what other point does the Rapibus system get any closer to the O-Train network? There's no reason why service to Taché station could be more regular, there's a university there. In fact it would link UQO, uOttawa and Carleton in some fashion.

It's useful to commuters from eastern Gatineau who take Rapibus to get to either Tunney's or downtown Ottawa. If they ran buses from Bayview to the Chaudiere and Portage complexes via the PoW, it would also be useful for west.enders who need to go there.