Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Just a though, but consider the possible scenario where the city decides to apply for discontinuation of the PoW bridge section of the line and MOOSE ends up obtaining the bridge:

Even if the city went and applied for a provincial rail license, wouldn't the only thing that would do is make the Trillium line a provincial railway running on federally regulated rails?

I think it is regulated by one or the other. If Capital Railways ceased to be an interprovincial line and became a provincially regulated line then the rails would no longer be federally regulated. The CTA ruled that it had no jurisdiction over the Hull–Chelsea–Wakefield Railway, even though it was once federally regulated (when owned by Canadian Pacific).

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think it is regulated by one or the other. If Capital Railways ceased to be an interprovincial line and became a provincially regulated line then the rails would no longer be federally regulated. The CTA ruled that it had no jurisdiction over the Hull–Chelsea–Wakefield Railway, even though it was once federally regulated (when owned by Canadian Pacific).

However in this scenario, part of the line (an arguably integral part of the line) would still be active and federally regulated. Would they just say "past this line, it's no longer federal, too bad so sad"?

Provincial railways on federal rails does exist in the GO system, so I don't think it's entirely one or the other. (I'm pretty sure they're federally regulated at least).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

In the short term, a better option overall would be to upgrade the POW bridge to allow buses to use it. They could do like the STO did with the Rapibus bridge over the Gatineau River and keep the tracks on it so that the bridge doesn't need to be decommissioned as shown below:

I'm still not clear what would be the advantage of that. If I am an Ottawa resident and want to get to Quebec, why is it better for me to get off at Bayview, wait for a Quebec bus, wait for the bus to drive 2 km to Taché (waiting for access to one-way bridges) and then proceed downtown along Taché, when I can disembark at either Lebreton or Lyon and be on an STO or OCTranspo bus that can get me to Gatineau in a few minutes. Gatineau residents coming from Alymer may save a few minutes, but spending tens of millions to save Alymer residents a few minutes doesn't seem like a good use of Ottawa taxpayers' money.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

However in this scenario, part of the line (an arguably integral part of the line) would still be active and federally regulated. Would they just say "past this line, it's no longer federal, too bad so sad"?

Provincial railways on federal rails does exist in the GO system, so I don't think it's entirely one or the other. (I'm pretty sure they're federally regulated at least).

Part of the problem here is that "railway" describes both the rails and the entity that moves vehicles along the rails.

My understanding is if Capital Railway no longer owns rails in two provinces then its remaining rails would no longer be under federal jurisdiction as the rail-owning company no longer operates an interprovincial railway (no longer owns rails in two provinces).

In the Toronto area, GO operates on federally regulated rails only where its vehicles operated on tracks owned by a company that operates rails in multiple provinces (CN, CP, etc)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm still not clear what would be the advantage of that. If I am an Ottawa resident and want to get to Quebec, why is it better for me to get off at Bayview, wait for a Quebec bus, wait for the bus to drive 2 km to Taché (waiting for access to one-way bridges) and then proceed downtown along Taché, when I can disembark at either Lebreton or Lyon and be on an STO or OCTranspo bus that can get me to Gatineau in a few minutes.

Presumably OCTranspo would run buses from Bayview to Hull over the POW bridge similar to what is proposed for the 85 post LRT except using the POW bridge instead of the Chaudière Bridge. Slightly better for those in the west, but would not be helpful for those downtown or in the east, so a downtown bus to Hull would still be necessary.

Gatineau residents coming from Alymer may save a few minutes, but spending tens of millions to save Alymer residents a few minutes doesn't seem like a good use of Ottawa taxpayers' money.

It would be connected to the Rapidbus line so STO would run fast, frequent buses from Labrosse (eventually Lorrain) to Bayview. As a result it would also be beneficial to those in old Gatineau as they could avoid winding through city streets in Hull and Ottawa. Those going to western Ottawa can avoid downtown Ottawa and Hull altogether.

For the City of Ottawa, the big advantage is it would get a lot of STO buses out of downtown streets (though probably not all as they would still want buses to and from Hull).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Presumably OCTranspo would run buses from Bayview to Hull over the POW bridge similar to what is proposed for the 85 post LRT except using the POW bridge instead of the Chaudière Bridge. Slightly better for those in the west, but would not be helpful for those downtown or in the east, so a downtown bus to Hull would still be necessary.

With the transitway gone there isn't really much access for buses. They would have to take Albert street, which hardly seems better than taking the confederation line.

Originally Posted by roger1818

It would be connected to the Rapidbus line so STO would run fast, frequent buses from Labrosse (eventually Lorrain) to Bayview. As a result it would also be beneficial to those in old Gatineau as they could avoid winding through city streets in Hull and Ottawa. Those going to western Ottawa can avoid downtown Ottawa and Hull altogether.

I am not sure this would be faster that going directly from Montcalm to downtown hull (and on to Ottawa), which is what most Rapibus routes do now.

Originally Posted by roger1818

For the City of Ottawa, the big advantage is it would get a lot of STO buses out of downtown streets (though probably not all as they would still want buses to and from Hull).

Would it, or would riders on both sides want to keep service to downtown that are much faster and easier?


Overall, this seems like a solution in search of a problem.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Overall, this seems like a solution in search of a problem.

That's basically the history behind the Trillium line, and it's worked out pretty well.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

That's basically the history behind the Trillium line, and it's worked out pretty well.

That's true, but the pilot project was relatively cheap ($21M for an 8 km line) and has major drivers of ridership along it (most notably a university, but also a complex of office buildings, a large shopping centre, a popular restaurant/entertainment district, etc).

Various proposals for the PoW bridge are many times more expensive and have no drivers of ridership (i.e. plans are all based on convincing people to take longer and less convenient routes for unclear reasons).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

For the City of Ottawa, the big advantage is it would get a lot of STO buses out of downtown streets (though probably not all as they would still want buses to and from Hull).

I still don't understand why the City of Ottawa takes it as a given that removing buses (other than Transitway ones) from downtown is somehow a desirable goal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

With the transitway gone there isn't really much access for buses. They would have to take Albert street, which hardly seems better than taking the confederation line.

Albert St??? How would you use Albert street to get from Bayview Station to the POW Bridge??? My suggestion is to extend the Rapibus south from Taché–UQO, across the POW bridge to Bayvew station. All buses would then terminate there for transfers to the Confederation or Trillium lines.

I am not sure this would be faster that going directly from Montcalm to downtown hull (and on to Ottawa), which is what most Rapibus routes do now.

Route 200 (according to Google maps) is scheduled to take 11 minutes to get to from Montcalm to the Wellington/Lyon stop in the AM peak period (which is probably about the same as it will be to get to Lyon station when rerouted).

A Rapibus extension to Bayview would be 2.65 km from Montcalm, which at an average speed of 50 km/h (top speed would be higher) would take under 2:15 minutes, but lets round that up to 3 minutes as it might have to wait to cross the bridge if its a single lane. Lets say an average of an extra 3 minutes to walk to the LRT platform and wait for the next train (they will be running every 3.5 minutes in AM peak) and another 2 minutes to get to Lyon station and another minute to get to the surface. That is only 9 minutes, so while not a huge savings, none of that is on city streets, so there are no risks of delays due to congestion. Those going to other stations would be even further ahead.

Would it, or would riders on both sides want to keep service to downtown that are much faster and easier?

How is that different to those in the suburbs of Ottawa commuting to downtown? They might prefer to have an express bus downtown, but OC Transpo won't be giving them one, so they will have to transfer to LRT. If STO doesn't give people a direct route to downtown, they won't have a choice.

From STO's perspective, they are likely saving at least 10-20 minutes off of each bus that runs to Bayview instead of downtown Ottawa. I don't know how many buses STO runs into Ottawa in a day, but there are 38 different routes, so we are likely talking about hundreds of buses each day.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I still don't understand why the City of Ottawa takes it as a given that removing buses (other than Transitway ones) from downtown is somehow a desirable goal.

The majority of STO buses in Ottawa are Rapibus routes (or similar) which are really the same as Transitway routes. Local bus routes from downtown Ottawa to Hull should be maintained.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Albert St??? How would you use Albert street to get from Bayview Station to the POW Bridge??? My suggestion is to extend the Rapibus south from Taché–UQO, across the POW bridge to Bayvew station. All buses would then terminate there for transfers to the Confederation or Trillium lines.

Route 200 (according to Google maps) is scheduled to take 11 minutes to get to from Montcalm to the Wellington/Lyon stop in the AM peak period (which is probably about the same as it will be to get to Lyon station when rerouted).

A Rapibus extension to Bayview would be 2.65 km from Montcalm, which at an average speed of 50 km/h (top speed would be higher) would take under 2:15 minutes, but lets round that up to 3 minutes as it might have to wait to cross the bridge if its a single lane. Lets say an average of an extra 3 minutes to walk to the LRT platform and wait for the next train (they will be running every 3.5 minutes in AM peak) and another 2 minutes to get to Lyon station and another minute to get to the surface. That is only 9 minutes, so while not a huge savings, none of that is on city streets, so there are no risks of delays due to congestion. Those going to other stations would be even further ahead.

How is that different to those in the suburbs of Ottawa commuting to downtown? They might prefer to have an express bus downtown, but OC Transpo won't be giving them one, so they will have to transfer to LRT. If STO doesn't give people a direct route to downtown, they won't have a choice.

From STO's perspective, they are likely saving at least 10-20 minutes off of each bus that runs to Bayview instead of downtown Ottawa. I don't know how many buses STO runs into Ottawa in a day, but there are 38 different routes, so we are likely talking about hundreds of buses each day.

It takes two minutes for the Rapibus to get from Taché to Montcalm now, so I am not sure how you think it would take 15 seconds to traverse the additional 1.88 km, especially since it has a level crossing at Taché and has to get through several hundred metres of one-way bridges (basically the same as encountering a flagman on a two lane highway - not fast).

A more realistic time would probably be closer to 7-8 minutes.

If you add 2-3 minutes to transfer, 2-3 minutes for the confederation line trip then you're looking at 11-14 minutes. So at best it is break even, at worse it takes longer. Meanwhile people coming from other sectors of Gatineau will spend much longer (having to detour 2 km to the west, 2 km down

And for Ottawa residents from the west will have to spend a few minutes transferring, about 5 minutes to get to Tache, another 5-6 minutes along Taché instead of a 5-6 minute bus ride and Ottawa residents coming from the east will have to add another 5-6 minutes doubling back again.

So you want Ottawa to spend tens of millions to make things worse for their own residents, make things worse or the same for Gatineau residents, gobble up a bunch of waterfront (and potential TOD land) with a big bus station.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It takes two minutes for the Rapibus to get from Taché to Montcalm now, so I am not sure how you think it would take 15 seconds to traverse the additional 1.88 km, especially since it has a level crossing at Taché and has to get through several hundred metres of one-way bridges (basically the same as encountering a flagman on a two lane highway - not fast)

A more realistic time would probably be closer to 7-8 minutes.

I don't think it really takes the full 2 minutes to travel the 850m to Taché. Instead I suspect that is just round off error (bus schedules don't include seconds). Priority could be given to buses at Taché or it could be grade separated. As for the one-way bridges, the schedule could optimized arround the one-way bridges to have buses travel in bursts.

Maybe 3 minutes was a bit optimistic, but I thin your 7-8 minutes is pessimistic. 5 minutes is probably closer to the real time.

If you add 2-3 minutes to transfer, 2-3 minutes for the confederation line trip then you're looking at 11-14 minutes. So at best it is break even, at worse it takes longer. Meanwhile people coming from other sectors of Gatineau will spend much longer (having to detour 2 km to the west, 2 km down

So lets say they break even, assuming Lyon (the first station) is their destination and there are no traffic delays on the current route. If their destination is closer to another LRT station, further time would be saved. You are also forgetting that the RendezVous LeBreton development will extend downtown further west, closer to Bayview.

As for those from sectors of Gatineu that don't use the Rapibus line or aren't west of the bridge, they could still use the other bridges to go downtown. The objective is to reduce the number of buses that need to go downtown, not to eliminate them altogether.

And for Ottawa residents from the west will have to spend a few minutes transferring, about 5 minutes to get to Tache, another 5-6 minutes along Taché instead of a 5-6 minute bus ride and Ottawa residents coming from the east will have to add another 5-6 minutes doubling back again.

Those from the west will be transferring to the 85 to get to Hull anyway, so there won't be any additional transfers for most. It is a bit further west, but with a busway along the rail line from the bridge to Terrasses de la Chaudière, I can't see it being any worse than a bus over the Chaudière bridge.

As for those in the east, they would still take a local bus from Lyon Station to get to Hull and only use this route if they were wanting to go somewhere else in Gatineau.

So you want Ottawa to spend tens of millions to make things worse for their own residents, make things worse or the same for Gatineau residents, gobble up a bunch of waterfront (and potential TOD land) with a big bus station.

It needs to be a joint effort between Ottawa and Gatineau. Until Gatineau transitions to LRT, there is no point putting LRT on the POW bridge as you will be just adding even more transfers and fewer would likely end up using it.

The better option would be to abandon the POW bridge and build a new one in a better location, but that would cost hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't think it really takes the full 2 minutes to travel the 850m to Taché. Instead I suspect that is just round off error (bus schedules don't include seconds). Priority could be given to buses at Taché or it could be grade separated. As for the one-way bridges, the schedule could optimized arround the one-way bridges to have buses travel in bursts.

Maybe 3 minutes was a bit optimistic, but I thin your 7-8 minutes is pessimistic. 5 minutes is probably closer to the real time.



So lets say they break even, assuming Lyon (the first station) is their destination and there are no traffic delays on the current route. If their destination is closer to another LRT station, further time would be saved. You are also forgetting that the RendezVous LeBreton development will extend downtown further west, closer to Bayview.

As for those from sectors of Gatineu that don't use the Rapibus line or aren't west of the bridge, they could still use the other bridges to go downtown. The objective is to reduce the number of buses that need to go downtown, not to eliminate them altogether.



Those from the west will be transferring to the 85 to get to Hull anyway, so there won't be any additional transfers for most. It is a bit further west, but with a busway along the rail line from the bridge to Terrasses de la Chaudière, I can't see it being any worse than a bus over the Chaudière bridge.

As for those in the east, they would still take a local bus from Lyon Station to get to Hull and only use this route if they were wanting to go somewhere else in Gatineau.



It needs to be a joint effort between Ottawa and Gatineau. Until Gatineau transitions to LRT, there is no point putting LRT on the POW bridge as you will be just adding even more transfers and fewer would likely end up using it.

The better option would be to abandon the POW bridge and build a new one in a better location, but that would cost hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars.

So we're spending tens of millions to get some buses off of downtown streets (because?) so some riders will break even and others will have a longer travel time? It still makes little sense to me.

But anyway, we have not seen what STO traffic will look like after the Confederation Line opens, so I am not sure we well placed to identify problems (if any) yet.

Moreover, such a plan would require Capital Railways to discontinue North of Bayview, so that could be a first step anyway.

Also, I am not clear why a two lane bus bridge (or two track rail bridge) would cost hundreds of millions billions, that sounds like the cost of a major "showpiece) bridge with significant navigational clearance requirements. The Vimy bridge (which is much wider than we're talking about here) was $50M.

[lrt's friend]

Have we ever seen how even a short one lane bridge operates? For safety reason, the waits are always longer than is expected. This is going to quite a long one lane bridge. This is going to be problematic. Let's say it takes 2 minutes to cross the bridge, another 2 minutes to clear any backlog of buses waiting to cross, repeat this on return. This means the traffic light cycle will be once every 8 minutes. Then we have to make sure that there is a big enough bus station at Bayview for buses terminating there. And where would extra buses waiting to come into service be stored?

The only approach that makes sense is to make the POW bridge a one way bridge going in the peak direction so that there is no waiting for returning buses on the same bridge. This means that buses return on another bridge and the STO bus station at Bayview would need a connection to Albert Street.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Have we ever seen how even a short one lane bridge operates?

Rapibus already has one over the Gatineau river. I must confess I haven't taken it. I am curious if you have?

For safety reason, the waits are always longer than is expected. This is going to quite a long one lane bridge.

There are effectively two bridges with an island in the middle. The two POW bridges are longer, but not by a huge margin.

Gatineau River Bridge: 250m
North POW Bridge: 380m (52% longer)
South POW Bridge: 310m (24% longer)

Let's say it takes 2 minutes to cross the bridge, another 2 minutes to clear any backlog of buses waiting to cross, repeat this on return. This means the traffic light cycle will be once every 8 minutes.

Is that similar to the timing for the existing bridge? I think you are over estimating those times. As I said the bus schedules could be synchronized with the light schedule (something you can't do with a bridge used by the general public). They can also use sensors and cameras to determine when the bridge is clear.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Also, I am not clear why a two lane bus bridge (or two track rail bridge) would cost hundreds of millions billions, that sounds like the cost of a major "showpiece) bridge with significant navigational clearance requirements. The Vimy bridge (which is much wider than we're talking about here) was $50M.

I figured it would be at least an order of magnitude more than repairing the existing bridge, which you said was in the tens of millions.

As for the Vimy bridge, it is wider but much shorter (under 100m). Length costs much more than width when it comes to bridges. The Vimy bridge doesn't require any supports in the middle of the river, something we most likely couldn't get away with on the Ottawa River. Those supports are very expensive to install.

Also, the Vimy bridge already had roads aligned on either side of the river. I can't find any places downtown where there are roads or rails waiting to be connected on both sides of the river (POW bridge excepted).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Rapibus already has one over the Gatineau river. I must confess I haven't taken it. I am curious if you have?



There are effectively two bridges with an island in the middle. The two POW bridges are longer, but not by a huge margin.

Gatineau River Bridge: 250m
North POW Bridge: 380m (52% longer)
South POW Bridge: 310m (24% longer)



Is that similar to the timing for the existing bridge? I think you are over estimating those times. As I said the bus schedules could be synchronized with the light schedule (something you can't do with a bridge used by the general public). They can also use sensors and cameras to determine when the bridge is clear.

Maybe I have not used that crossing myself, but there were complaints about the delays in the early days of Rapibus and some of the buses now return to old Gatineau by Pont des Draveurs to reduce the number of bus conflicts at the railway bridge.

Here is a video which suggests a 2.5 to 3 minute crossing cycle, so my estimate of 8 minutes would not be far off expected reality with the POW bridge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc6_Fi0qu_E

I think synchronization with bus schedules is being very optimistic. We all know buses don't operate that precisely. Even if we use sensors and cameras, traffic signals will still be used and being STO's main Ottawa terminus as suggested, there will be a lot of buses crossing especially during peak periods. Surely, you are not suggesting service frequency cuts here too to accommodate inadequate infrastructure. How does that benefit the transit rider?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Here is a video which suggests a 2.5 to 3 minute crossing cycle, so my estimate of 8 minutes would not be far off expected reality with the POW bridge.

How does a 52% longer bridge result in a 167 to 220% longer cycle time?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

How does a 52% longer bridge result in a 167 to 220% longer cycle time?

There are two spans, both of which are longer than the Gatineau river.