Great Lakes Cities

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

and even then, chicago also has large jewish and puerto rican communities too, but chicago is hardly "east coast" in any vague sense.

the jewish population in cleveland and st. louis are very similar.

[gallo]

Growing up in Buffalo, I would argue that our center of gravity was pulling us more towards Toronto, than to NYC. There was much-more interplay between populations, as Buffalonians head to Toronto for the "big city" while Toronto residents came to the Buffalo area for sports, shopping and skiing. Many people I knew had never visited NYC, but almost everyone had been to Canada/Toronto. Chicago wasn't even on the radar and Cleveland was barely a blip.

Originally Posted by pj3000

I can confidently say that the "Great Lakes region" cities of Buffalo (and all of NY state) and Erie and Pittsburgh (and all of PA) look to/are much more influenced by NYC and the eastern seaboard than by Chicago and the midwestern US.

The simple fact of being located in the states of NY and PA goes a very long way in forging that stronger connection.

As has been mentioned in this, and may other threads on here before, it seems that the pull towards Chicago as a center of an overall Midwestern culture becomes apparent in central/western Ohio. I think Cleveland feels like a transition zone, but I'm not familiar enough with Cleveland to know the intracacies of its overall connections to the greater Midwest/Chicago to really support this claim.

[Centropolis]

more balimer, hon... https://goo.gl/maps/TsJqNrqFjwT2

more st. louis, han... https://goo.gl/maps/2aBPoMqmjaM2

[Centropolis]

tremont, cleveland...it's like the city looked west for its vernacular...a big boned downtown like chicago, neighborhoods like well...could it possibly look any more like milwaukee?

https://goo.gl/maps/RkamJC9vGq52

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

About the only things vaguely "East Coast" about Cleveland are the relatively large Jewish and Puerto Rican populations, along with the New England influence to the oldest residential neighborhoods. Though even the latter isn't that distinctive, because plenty of parts of Milwaukee look the same.

The long-standing, big $ ties are pretty "east coast"... particularly to the NYC area... more so than you find in other midwestern cities.

Originally Posted by eschaton

Who are you thinking about here exactly?

PPG, PNC, Alcoa, Howard Hanna, US Steel, Giant Eagle to name a handful.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

tremont, cleveland...could it possibly look any more like milwaukee?

https://goo.gl/maps/RkamJC9vGq52

i know you were being rhetorical, but the answer is "no, it could not look any more like milwaukee".

that's like some carbon copy shit right there.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

the jewish population in cleveland and st. louis are very similar.

I don't think so. Far more prominent numbers and influence in Cleveland.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I don't think so. Far more prominent numbers and influence in Cleveland.

a bit over 60k around st. louis (my neighborhood in university city is very orthodox) 80k for "greater" cleveland, whatever that entails. university city and cleveland heights are very similar.

sources:

cleveland https://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/news...dc25048-46d9-11e1-a00b-0019bb2963f4.html

st. louis https://www.jta.org/2015/03/03/news-opin...ouis-rose-by-14-percent-in-last-20-years

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i guess we are talking past each other at this point, i'll take your word for it. i don't know what the equivalent is in cleveland but neighborhoods like this in st. louis https://goo.gl/maps/kdFmYDTZZSw or this https://goo.gl/maps/YHSkLMpegCD2 in cincinnati are the definition of midwestern cities with neighborhoods that have always felt rather "eastern" to me...corner bars, people shouting from windows, conversing on the street, etc...as if they are both are reaching for this... https://goo.gl/maps/w27FT8giWL72 (fells point, balimer)

(over the rhine actually feels heavier duty than fells point)

I think we've been through the whole brick rowhouse does not equal east coast/wood frame detached does not equal midwest thing, haven't we?

Or do we need to start posting streetviews of Worcester, Newark, Bridgeport again?

Originally Posted by gallo

Growing up in Buffalo, I would argue that our center of gravity was pulling us more towards Toronto, than to NYC. There was much-more interplay between populations, as Buffalonians head to Toronto for the "big city" while Toronto residents came to the Buffalo area for sports, shopping and skiing. Many people I knew had never visited NYC, but almost everyone had been to Canada/Toronto. Chicago wasn't even on the radar and Cleveland was barely a blip.

Sure, I wouldn't argue with you on that about Toronto. I was just saying that Buffalo feels the pull from NYC and the east much more than from Chicago and the west. The in-state connection is undeniable though.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

a bit over 60k around st. louis (my neighborhood in university city is very orthodox) 80k for "greater" cleveland, whatever that entails. university city and cleveland heights are very similar.

sources:

cleveland https://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/news...dc25048-46d9-11e1-a00b-0019bb2963f4.html

st. louis https://www.jta.org/2015/03/03/news-opin...ouis-rose-by-14-percent-in-last-20-years

i think Cleveland's CSA (including Akron) is closer to 90k.

Cleveland's eastern suburbs have among the highest % populations of Jewish residents outside of Israel. A demographic that is a very prominent cultural and economic force in NE Ohio. Particularly with tight connections to the NYC area... families like the Ratners, Lerners.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I think we've been through the whole brick rowhouse does not equal east coast/wood frame detached does not equal midwest thing, haven't we?

Or do we need to start posting streetviews of Worcester, Newark, Bridgeport again?

i mean...one can post photos of increasingly generic frame houses and make all sorts of arguments. it's an extraordinarily popular american building style from portland maine to portland oregon.

i just think it's particularly interesting when you find very specific similarities between cities with features like flounder houses (or backsides), mousehole passageways, etc. these specific features sometimes lend a very specific eastern feel to neighborhoods from st. louis to cincinnati to pittsburgh to baltimore. cleveland has always felt to me to be a creature of the great lakes, and unmistakably of the eastern midwest to me.

i never really noticed the funny smudging of a vestigial east coast into the midwest in cleveland like i feel is present in the ohio valley...at least to the same extent.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i mean...one can post photos of increasingly generic frame houses and make all sorts of arguments. it's an extraordinarily popular american building style from portland maine to portland oregon.

i just think it's particularly interesting when you find very specific similarities between cities with features like flounder houses (or backsides), mousehole passageways, etc. these specific features sometimes lend a very specific eastern feel to neighborhoods from st. louis to cincinnati to pittsburgh to baltimore. cleveland has always felt to me to be a creature of the great lakes, and specifically 100% midwest to me.

I hear what you're saying. And I certainly think that Cleveland is a creature of the Great Lakes... just as river cities like Pittsburgh, Cincy, St. Louis are creatures of their river. I just generally go beyond housing vernacular when defining cities' regional affliiations. Though I understand that it is a big contributor.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i never really noticed the funny smudging of a vestigial east coast into the midwest in cleveland like i feel is present in the ohio valley...at least to the same extent.

well, I think that could be that you're defining that east coast smudging to mean "settled by people from the mid-Atlantic or the midlands"... meaning Philly, Baltimore, MD/VA. I think you can definitiely notice that through the Ohio valley from Pittsburgh to Cincy to Louisville... to St. Louis... though I get more of a mixed southern/New Orleans vibe colliding with that mid-Atlantic/northern characteristic in St. Louis.

[Centropolis]

here are the busiest domestic routes for selected midwestern airports:

Busiest domestic routes from CLE (November 2016 – October 2017)
Rank City Passengers Carriers
1 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 419,550 American, United
2 Atlanta, Georgia 406,020 Delta, Frontier, Southwest, Spirit
3 Denver, Colorado 228,490 Frontier, Southwest, United
4 Orlando, Florida 222,590 Delta, Frontier, Spirit, United
5 Charlotte, North Carolina 196,710 American, Frontier
6 Chicago–Midway, Illinois 190,470 Southwest
7 Las Vegas, Nevada 183,700 Frontier, Southwest, Spirit
8 Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas 166,730 American, Spirit
9 New York–LaGuardia, New York 158,600 American, Delta, United
10 Boston, Massachusetts 150,660 JetBlue, Spirit, United


Busiest domestic routes from CAK
(October 2016 – September 2017)[11]
Rank City Passengers Carriers
1 Atlanta, GA 220,050 Delta, Southwest
2 Charlotte, NC 87,820 American
3 Chicago, IL (O'Hare) 80,500 American, United
4 Detroit, MI 48,190 Delta
5 Orlando, FL 45,350 Southwest, Spirit
6 Fort Lauderdale, FL 27,170 Allegiant, Spirit
7 Newark, NJ 23,190 United
8 Las Vegas, NV 21,910 Spirit
9 Philadelphia, PA 21,440 American
10 Myrtle Beach, SC 19,210 Spirit

Busiest domestic routes from STL (November 2016 – October 2017)[46]
Rank City Passengers Carriers
1 Atlanta, Georgia 524,680 Delta, Frontier, Southwest
2 Denver, Colorado 398,190 Frontier, Southwest, United
3 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 337,310 American, United
4 Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas 283,320 American
5 Orlando–MCO, Florida 276,720 Delta, Frontier, Southwest
6 New York–LaGuardia, New York 265,160 American, Delta, Southwest
7 Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 263,560 Delta, Southwest
8 Phoenix, Arizona 261,160 American, Frontier, Southwest
9 Las Vegas, Nevada 241,960 Frontier, Southwest
10 Chicago–Midway, Illinois 239,000 Southwest

Busiest domestic routes from CVG (Cincinnati)
(December 2016 – November 2017)[112]
Rank City Passengers Carriers
1 Atlanta, Georgia 352,000 Delta, Frontier
2 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 294,000 American, Delta, United
3 Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas 176,000 American, Delta, Frontier
4 Orlando, Florida1 170,000 Delta, Frontier
5 Denver, Colorado 164,000 Allegiant, Delta, Frontier, United
6 Charlotte, North Carolina 158,000 American, Delta
7 New York–LaGuardia, New York 153,000 American, Delta, Frontier
8 Las Vegas, Nevada 143,000 Allegiant, Delta, Frontier
9 Newark, New Jersey 140,000 Allegiant, Delta, United
10 Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 119,000 Delta, Frontier


Busiest domestic routes from IND (Dec 2016 – Nov 2017)[37]
Rank City Passengers Carriers
1 Atlanta, Georgia 502,000 Delta, Southwest
2 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 310,000 American, United
3 Denver, Colorado 302,000 Frontier, Southwest, United
4 Orlando, Florida1 217,000 Delta, Frontier, Southwest
5 Charlotte, North Carolina 204,000 American
6 Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas 199,000 American
7 Phoenix–Sky Harbor, AZ 160,000 American, Southwest
8 Washington–National, D.C. 159,000 American, Southwest
9 Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 154,000 Delta
10 Las Vegas, Nevada 151,000 Allegiant, Frontier, Southwest

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

though I get more of a mixed southern/New Orleans vibe colliding with that mid-Atlantic/northern characteristic in St. Louis.

a little bit, that certainly starts in cincinnati, though, with northern kentucky (which is impressively urban...and in fact northern kentucky (covington, etc) may be the MOST under rated built environment in the midwest. st. louis draws a bit from the lower mississippi valley (memphis/nola), while metro cincinnati draws any tinge of southern (or country) influence from appalachia/kentucky.

not sure how this plays in pittsburgh but the appalachian influence is going to be different than cincinnati, obviously.

[mrnyc]

cleveland has two regional airports and a downtown business airport, so you need to add akron-canton to cle for whatever you are doing. hopkins is the oldest municipal airport and is totally hemmed in, thus the growth of the akron-canton airport. a lot routes go thru ohare and atlanta for connecting flights, i don't think that means anything at all, they are both the main airport hubs in america.

[Centropolis]

regarding my previous post -metro cincinnati and st. louis share a funny collision of southern and german influences in its cuisine...in fact we kind of have a fusion in st. louis between the two...places where you can get schnitzel and bbq.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

cleveland has two regional airports and a downtown business airport, so you need to add akron-canton to cle for whatever you are doing. hopkins is the oldest municipal airport and is totally hemmed in, thus the growth of the akron-canton airport.

Busiest domestic routes from CLE (November 2016 – October 2017)
Rank City Passengers Carriers
1 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 419,550 American, United
2 Atlanta, Georgia 406,020 Delta, Frontier, Southwest, Spirit
3 Denver, Colorado 228,490 Frontier, Southwest, United
4 Orlando, Florida 222,590 Delta, Frontier, Spirit, United
5 Charlotte, North Carolina 196,710 American, Frontier
6 Chicago–Midway, Illinois 190,470 Southwest
7 Las Vegas, Nevada 183,700 Frontier, Southwest, Spirit
8 Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas 166,730 American, Spirit
9 New York–LaGuardia, New York 158,600 American, Delta, United
10 Boston, Massachusetts 150,660 JetBlue, Spirit, United


Busiest domestic routes from CAK
(October 2016 – September 2017)[11]
Rank City Passengers Carriers
1 Atlanta, GA 220,050 Delta, Southwest
2 Charlotte, NC 87,820 American
3 Chicago, IL (O'Hare) 80,500 American, United
4 Detroit, MI 48,190 Delta
5 Orlando, FL 45,350 Southwest, Spirit
6 Fort Lauderdale, FL 27,170 Allegiant, Spirit
7 Newark, NJ 23,190 United
8 Las Vegas, NV 21,910 Spirit
9 Philadelphia, PA 21,440 American
10 Myrtle Beach, SC 19,210 Spirit

[mrnyc]

yeah thats the total air traffic in the region. its been awhile, but i used to take jetblue to cak i wonder what happened to that? i guess its gone away. frontier really switched up all their routes too.

[Gallivant21]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I agree with all this, but that doesn't mean Buffalo and especially Cleveland, don't look and feel Midwest. Re. Cleveland, there is no major American city that looks/feels more like Cleveland than Detroit. Midwest, more or less, starts when the hills stop.

What are you talking about? You lack all kinds of credibility when you say stuff like this. Cleveland and Detroit, no, not at all. Buffalo and Milwaukee looks/feels more like Cleveland than any other major city in the US.