Great Lakes Cities

[Crawford]

I don't understand why a cities are more "similar" if people move between the cities.

Tons of Detroiters retire in Naples, even more New Yorkers retire in Boca and environs. Chicagoans move to Phoenix. Buffaloans move to Charlotte. Is the contention that Chicago is like Phoenix because there are lots of Bears fans there?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't understand why a cities are more "similar" if people move between the cities.

i'm not trying to make that claim.

just offering my anecdotal experiences of knowing people here in chicago that originally grew up in the cleveland/pittsburgh region.

i do not think this fact alone automatically makes cities more similar to each other.



though i would argue (without regard to how clevelanders themselves might orient their city) that cleveland is, on the surface, more similar to chicago than it is to new york or boston or philadelphia.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

there is a lot of pitts-cle interaction, from sports to work commutes, to visits on down to ikea trips. there is also something of a cle-pitts metropolis with akron-canton/youngstown between them.

that makes sense. downtown to downtown, cleveland and pittsburgh are only 114 miles away from each other with, as you said, several other cities of some significance in between.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I never understood why, other than relative geographic proximity, Pittsburgh was put into the Great Lakes megaregion on that map. I mean, if you look at migration, Pittsburgh has a lot of churn with DC, Philly, and New York, but basically none with the Midwest past Ohio. Virtually no one from Chicago moves here, or vice versa.

Right, I don't think that map is an accurate representation of reality.

That's why I was stating how the eastern cities grouped into that Great Lakes megaregion look to and are influenced by points east rather than the Great Lakes "proper" region.

Originally Posted by eschaton

It really doesn't share a lot with these cities, other than a shared industrial heritage.

Buffalo and Cleveland are "northern" cities, which were settled originally by old-stock Yankees traveling westward via the Erie canal. The have a lot of shared characteristics from this, including Inland North dialects (also shared with Chicago, Detroit, etc) and a built vernacular based on detached wood-framed structures spaced relatively far apart.

In contrast, Pittsburgh is a "midland" city. It was settled initially mostly by Scotch-Irish migrants traveling westward from eastern Pennsylvania and Virginia. Similar to the dialects of the Mid-Atlantic and the lower Midwest, the local dialect isn't fully "northern" but has some southern elements as well. The built vernacular was much tighter, brick-heavy, and featured a lot of rowhouses - building styles which continued westward (in modified form) to Cincinnati and St. Louis.

Erie was originally a "northern" city, but over time has become more "Midland" when it comes to accent due to the influence of the Pittsburgh media market. The same basic pattern also happened in St. Louis, but in reverse as the city became influenced by Chicago during the 20th century.

There's more than just industrial heritage... though that has an extremely large role in shaping culture... attracting very similar migrant groups and forming similar and highly-connected economic foundations... so that shouldn't be diminished in terms of its significant role in connection.

Initial settlement is one thing (and certainly an influence) and housing vernacular is something a lot of people get caught up with on here in attempting to define a geographic fit, but modern-day Pittsburgh shares more with Cleveland than it does with Philadelphia or Baltimore (accent notwithstanding). The economic ties between Pittsburgh-Cleveland are testament to that.

Erie is an odd case, being at the crux of 3 regions basically. It exhibits Great Lakes city qualities, of course... probably most similar with the southern tier of NY. But there is a "Pennsylvania pull" by virtue of being part of the state. I think any accent there that would be either "northern" or "midland" is canceled out by the other... so it's tough to discern the regional accent; go closer to Buffalo and you encounter the nasal upstate NY accent, go into Ohio closer to Cleveland and you start to hear a bit of that nasal midwestern accent (it's different than the upstate NY one), head an hour south towards Pittsburgh and you'll start to recognize the Pittsburghese (in which you can also hear similarities to SE PA/Maryland, though it's stronger and more Appalachian as you can hear in WV).

There's not much Pittsburgh "media market" influence in Erie at all, other than that a lot of people like the Steelers (though Erie is in the Bills' media market). Economic/cultural ties have existed, and are probably increasing now, but a Pittsburgh media market certainly has had no influence on any accent in Erie.

[mrnyc]

when they do refer to it, people in cleveland refer to chicago as a big cleveland. some want that some dont care.

people complain in ny about midwesterners ruining it as if they are to blame for chain stores and gentrification. well the move ins complain, the locals dont, but whatever. thats happening all over, so there must be a couple billion midwestern chain store lovers on the move and ruining cities all over the usa and the world for that to be true. not to mention, most of the nyc move ins are far and away from eastern cities.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

people complain in ny about midwesterners ruining it as if they are to blame for chain stores and gentrification. well the move ins complain, the locals dont, but whatever. thats happening all over, so there must be a couple billion midwestern chain store lovers on the move and ruining cities all over the usa and the world for that to be true. not to mention, most of the nyc move ins are far and away from eastern cities.

literally every corner of the country complains about midwesterners "moving in."

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

there is a lot of pitts-cle interaction, from sports to work commutes, to visits on down to ikea trips. there is also something of a cle-pitts metropolis with akron-canton/youngstown between them.

Tons of interaction. Many of Pittsburgh's large companies actually have large and even their largest operations centers (# of employees) in Cleveland area.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i'm not trying to make that claim.

just offering my anecdotal experiences of knowing people here in chicago that originally grew up in the cleveland/pittsburgh region.

i do not think this fact alone automatically makes cities more similar to each other.



though i would argue (without regard to how clevelanders themselves might orient their city) that cleveland is, on the surface, more similar to chicago than it is to new york or boston or philadelphia.

no, on the surface its pretty much exactly halfway between the them. but you are missing the east coast element of cleveland entirely. its not nyc, boston or philly, the western reserve is via connecticut.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

though i would argue (without regard to how clevelanders themselves might orient their city) that cleveland is, on the surface, more similar to chicago than it is to new york or boston or philadelphia.

I would agree. Cleveland might be oriented eastwards, but looks/feels like cities to the west.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

literally every corner of the country complains about midwesterners "moving in."

yeah, right? there must be billions of them on the march. not to mention, when an old pub closes in the uk for a starbucks, must be the damn midwestern americans. or an old kopitiam closes for a bank in kuala lumpor, must be those midwesterners from america. lol.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

no, on the surface its pretty much exactly halfway between the them.

i disagree.

having lived in chicago all of my life and having visited both cleveland and new york a coupe of times, i would say that cleveland is more similar ON THE SURFACE to chicago than it is to new york.

again, that's just my perception based on being in all 3 cities. you're entirely free to disagree with me, but i doubt you're gonna change my perspective on this matter.

[Crawford]

Even Buffalo, which is slightly closer to NYC than to Chicago (and obviously in same state), looks/feels more like Chicago than NYC.

It's obviously influenced more by NYC, but it looks, feels and sounds (nasal) more like Great Lakes cities to the west.

[Centropolis]

cleveland is 100% a midwestern feeling city from my experience/visits/etc. nothing about it orients it towards the east coast more than any number of other midwestern cities with guilded age (or earlier) and/or east coast money built institutions/amenities/etc in my opinion.

in fact midwestern cities are sort of defined by the fact that east coast people and money poured in to build them...this extends to chicago, to cincinnati, to cleveland, to st. louis, etc etc etc.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i disagree.

having lived in chicago all of my life and having visited both cleveland and new york a coupe of times, i would say that cleveland is more similar ON THE SURFACE to chicago than it is to new york.

again, that's just my perception based on being in all 3 cities. you're entirely free to disagree with me, but i doubt you're gonna change my perspective on this matter.

thats because you cherry picked its not what i said.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

cleveland is 100% a midwestern feeling city from my experience/visits/etc. nothing about it orients it towards the east coast more than any number of other midwestern cities with guilded age (or earlier) and/or east coast money built institutions/amenities/etc in my opinion.

in fact midwestern cities are sort of defined by the fact that east coast money poured in to build them...this extends to chicago, to cincinnati, to cleveland, to st. louis, etc etc etc.

Just by geographic proximity, Cleveland is oriented more to the east coast in a ways that any number of other midwestern cities you list cannot be.

Add in the topographic differences and land use differences that you begin to experience west of Cleveland, and there is a difference. I'm not saying that Cleveland is more "east coast" than it is "midwest", but there is something that feels much more eastern in the Cleveland area than in the St. Louis area, for example.

[eschaton]

About the only things vaguely "East Coast" about Cleveland are the relatively large Jewish and Puerto Rican populations, along with the New England influence to the oldest residential neighborhoods. Though even the latter isn't that distinctive, because plenty of parts of Milwaukee look the same.

Originally Posted by pj3000

Tons of interaction. Many of Pittsburgh's large companies actually have large and even their largest operations centers (# of employees) in Cleveland area.

Who are you thinking about here exactly?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

thats because you cherry picked its not what i said.

i don't follow you. i didn't cherry pick anything.

i simply believe that cleveland looks more like chicago than it does new york (or any other east coast city).

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

cleveland is 100% a midwestern feeling city from my experience/visits/etc. nothing about it orients it towards the east coast more than any number of other midwestern cities with guilded age (or earlier) and/or east coast money built institutions/amenities/etc in my opinion.

in fact midwestern cities are sort of defined by the fact that east coast people and money poured in to build them...this extends to chicago, to cincinnati, to cleveland, to st. louis, etc etc etc.

it is midwestern in feels, but its not 100% physically, it doesn't look like chicago, st louis, minneapolis, detroit, cinci, pitts, etc., either in the layout or geography of the city area or in the metro's historic connecticut western reserve village and rural areas (chardon, litchfield, etc).

milwaukee though? ok lol!

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Just by geographic proximity, Cleveland is oriented more to the east coast in a ways that any number of other midwestern cities you list cannot be.

Add in the topographic differences and land use differences that you begin to experience west of Cleveland, and there is a difference. I'm not saying that Cleveland is more "east coast" than it is "midwest", but there is something that feels much more eastern in the Cleveland area than in the St. Louis area, for example.

i guess we are talking past each other at this point, i'll take your word for it. i don't know what the equivalent is in cleveland but neighborhoods like this in st. louis https://goo.gl/maps/kdFmYDTZZSw or this https://goo.gl/maps/YHSkLMpegCD2 in cincinnati are the definition of midwestern cities with neighborhoods that have always felt rather "eastern" to me...corner bars, people shouting from windows, conversing on the street, etc...as if they are both are reaching for this... https://goo.gl/maps/w27FT8giWL72 (fells point, balimer)

(over the rhine actually feels heavier duty than fells point)

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

About the only things vaguely "East Coast" about Cleveland are the relatively large Jewish and Puerto Rican populations

and even then, chicago also has large jewish and puerto rican communities too, but chicago is hardly "east coast" in any vague sense.