Great Lakes Cities

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Neither Toronto or Pittsburgh are "Midwest." But in terms of demographics and housing prices, yeah, they obviously couldn't be more different cities.

I wonder how far back in time you have to go before most Midwestern cities were equally expensive (or even more expensive) than Toronto.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

yes lakewood is a wonderful, very mixed, hipstery and dense old suburb of beautiful large craftsman homes and apt bldgs. in fact its the density capital city of ohio. there is also a downtown lakewood as you see in the foreground a string of highrise apt bldgs along lake erie. many of the inner suburbs that border cleveland are actually and for otherwise all practical purposes physical extensions of the city, like lakewood, the heights, east cleveland, etc.

Cleveland likely has the finest "streetcar suburbs" in the Midwest and even all of North America.

[Capsicum]

Also, going back in time, were southern Ontario cities ever demographically more similar to Midwestern ones? I think a city like Toronto was either much less diverse than (back when Toronto was mostly British Isles descent), or more diverse than (when Toronto started having much greater Southern and Eastern European, and then Caribbean, East and South Asian and overall all-over-the-world immigration) most Midwestern cities with not much of a transitional in-between. When "white ethnics" like Italians, arrived in Midwestern cities, their counterparts to southern Ontario would have to wait a generation or two later (southern Ontario is much more post-war "white ethnic"). Even the larger more recent waves of late 20th century immigration to places like Detroit and Chicago aren't that similar to Toronto's (example, Chicago's Mexican population is unlike Toronto's Latin American population, which although small, is split between more countries, and Arabs, while sizeable in number in Toronto, aren't as numerous as in Detroit, plus Arab Canadians are proportionally more numerous in Montreal relative to the population, not Toronto). Toronto's Polish and eastern European population is kind of shared between Midwestern cities, but again the timing of immigration peaks doesn't always match up.

Southern Ontario missed out on some waves of migration that the Midwest got -- late 19th and early 20th century non-British Isles European immigration (though there were Germans, and other European immigrant ethnic groups in southern Ontario, it definitely wasn't as much) and the African American Great Migration (an internal migration obviously for the US, not Canada). But then the Midwest missed out on much post 1960s immigration that southern Ontario and Toronto got (like many Caribbeans, East Asians). So there was little matching of immigration waves between the Midwest and Southern Ontario.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Also, going back in time, were southern Ontario cities ever demographically more similar to Midwestern ones?

Well, a lot of Ontarians poured into Michigan in the 19th and early 20th centuries...

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Docere

Cleveland likely has the finest "streetcar suburbs" in the Midwest and even all of North America.

yes, the van sweringen brothers, or the vans as they are known locally, pioneered that concept with the tower city/terminal tower complex and its rail service to shaker heights. of course they weren’t the only streetcar suburb developers, but they did make probably the biggest show of it with tower city to shaker square. although it was all a success it did them in too and its not hard to imagine the strain of something like that. it was the hudson yards project of its day.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Somehow, the Midwest (eg. the metro areas of Chicago, Detroit) managed to get decent numbers of people of South Asian, and Middle Eastern (who might be considered Arab or West Asian on the Canadian census, but not considered Asian on the US Census) descent, but relatively few East Asians. I wonder why that is.

Toronto has both lots of East Asians and South Asians.

I don’t know, but Chicago actually has captured a larger Chinese diaspora than you may think, and also historically was a major hub for Korean immigration.

But yes, to me I don’t really understand what drives these things. Why is Toronto getting Caribbeans and East Asians at a greater rate than Chicago? Why are so many Africans moving to Minneapolis?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Well, that's because everybody loathes the Midwest. I started a thread about it a year or two ago. For whatever arbitrary reason, the word "Midwest" is hated and looked down upon, and the word "east coast" is viewed more favorably.

So if a given city is given a choice whether to be affiliated with the east coast or the Midwest (regardless of their true ties), they will choose "east coast" every single time.

Despite its wealth and richness of resources, "Midwest" is viewed as conservative, anti-progressive, and provincial.

For this reason, I have advocated that even Midwestern cities stop using the "Midwest" label, so tarnished that name has become, and instead label themselves as "Cities of the Great Lakes region". I bet you cities like Toronto, etc would more readily affiliate themselves with "Great Lakes cities" than "Midwestern cities".

source: https://memegenerator.net/instance/72650900/jan-brady-whining-marcia-marcia-marcia

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Docere

While Buffalo may be a Great Lakes city I'm pretty sure it looks to, and is more influenced by, NYC than Chicago.

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I think just by being the biggest city, NYC influences much of the country (and points beyond, internationally), so cities farther outside the Midwest, are pulled towards the eastern seaboard, simply because the US center of influence is still kind of there (NYC, Washington DC. etc), though the NE's or the eastern seaboard's dominance has gradually waned over the years as other regions of the country have become more populous.

I can confidently say that the "Great Lakes region" cities of Buffalo (and all of NY state) and Erie and Pittsburgh (and all of PA) look to/are much more influenced by NYC and the eastern seaboard than by Chicago and the midwestern US.

The simple fact of being located in the states of NY and PA goes a very long way in forging that stronger connection.

As has been mentioned in this, and may other threads on here before, it seems that the pull towards Chicago as a center of an overall Midwestern culture becomes apparent in central/western Ohio. I think Cleveland feels like a transition zone, but I'm not familiar enough with Cleveland to know the intracacies of its overall connections to the greater Midwest/Chicago to really support this claim.

[eschaton]

Pittsburgh may only be a two-hour drive from Cleveland, but it's not a Great Lakes city in the slightest. Doesn't have the built environment, doesn't have the accent, etc. It's much more like a mashup of Philly and Cincinnati, although with way less white flight than either of those cities.

[pj3000]

^ Based on the "megaregions" map that the discussion was flowing from

But Pittsburgh certainly shares connection with the Great Lakes cities of Buffalo, Cleveland, and Erie, although it decidedly much more Appalachian than Great Lakes.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I can confidently say that the "Great Lakes region" cities of Buffalo (and all of NY state) and Erie and Pittsburgh (and all of PA) look to/are much more influenced by NYC and the eastern seaboard than by Chicago and the midwestern US.

The simple fact of being located in the states of NY and PA goes a very long way in forging that stronger connection.

As has been mentioned in this, and may other threads on here before, it seems that the pull towards Chicago as a center of an overall Midwestern culture becomes apparent in central/western Ohio. I think Cleveland feels like a transition zone, but I'm not familiar enough with Cleveland to know the intracacies of its overall connections to the greater Midwest/Chicago to really support this claim.

I agree with all this, but that doesn't mean Buffalo and especially Cleveland, don't look and feel Midwest. Re. Cleveland, there is no major American city that looks/feels more like Cleveland than Detroit. Midwest, more or less, starts when the hills stop.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

But yes, to me I don’t really understand what drives these things. Why is Toronto getting Caribbeans and East Asians at a greater rate than Chicago?

Because it's in Canada. The U.S. and Canada have vastly different immigration laws.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I agree with all this, but that doesn't mean Buffalo and especially Cleveland, don't look and feel Midwest. Re. Cleveland, there is no major American city that looks/feels more like Cleveland than Detroit. Midwest, more or less, starts when the hills stop.

^ you have got to be kidding. cleveland has hills and deep valleys, including being split by one. it has quirky streets and neighborhoods tied to that landscape. it looks nothing like flat, spread out detroit.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I agree with all this, but that doesn't mean Buffalo and especially Cleveland, don't look and feel Midwest. Re. Cleveland, there is no major American city that looks/feels more like Cleveland than Detroit. Midwest, more or less, starts when the hills stop.

Yeah, I wasn't disputing the look/feel of those cities. Just that even though cities like Buffalo, Erie, and Pittsburgh are grouped in with that Great Lakes megaregion map, they all definitely share closer connection with/influence from points east than they do the greater midwest (the whole pull from NYC or Chicago thing).

Right, hills/lack thereof (and the land uses associated) is as good as any indicator of a dividing line, if there has to be one, of East/Northeast or Midwest.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ you have got to be kidding. cleveland has hills and deep valleys, including being split by one. it has quirky streets and neighborhoods tied to that landscape. it looks nothing like flat, spread out detroit.

I've only been to Detroit once in my life and am not familiar with the city, so I can't comment on that comparison, but I think Cleveland represents a good transition city between east and midwest.

[mrnyc]

sure, thats why you have to get past the valleys of the western reserve in ohio before you get to the start of the stereotypic flat midwestern landscape. that begins with the historic firelands and the great black swamp regions along lake erie in western ohio. nw ohio is as flat as it comes.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I've only been to Detroit once in my life and am not familiar with the city, so I can't comment on that comparison, but I think Cleveland represents a good transition city between east and midwest.

yep for sure. in fact locally the eastside of town is referred to as east coast leaning culturally and otherwise and the west side is said to be the beginning of the midwest.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

^ Based on the "megaregions" map that the discussion was flowing from

I never understood why, other than relative geographic proximity, Pittsburgh was put into the Great Lakes megaregion on that map. I mean, if you look at migration, Pittsburgh has a lot of churn with DC, Philly, and New York, but basically none with the Midwest past Ohio. Virtually no one from Chicago moves here, or vice versa.

Originally Posted by pj3000

But Pittsburgh certainly shares connection with the Great Lakes cities of Buffalo, Cleveland, and Erie, although it decidedly much more Appalachian than Great Lakes.

It really doesn't share a lot with these cities, other than a shared industrial heritage.

Buffalo and Cleveland are "northern" cities, which were settled originally by old-stock Yankees traveling westward via the Erie canal. The have a lot of shared characteristics from this, including Inland North dialects (also shared with Chicago, Detroit, etc) and a built vernacular based on detached wood-framed structures spaced relatively far apart.

In contrast, Pittsburgh is a "midland" city. It was settled initially mostly by Scotch-Irish migrants traveling westward from eastern Pennsylvania and Virginia. Similar to the dialects of the Mid-Atlantic and the lower Midwest, the local dialect isn't fully "northern" but has some southern elements as well. The built vernacular was much tighter, brick-heavy, and featured a lot of rowhouses - building styles which continued westward (in modified form) to Cincinnati and St. Louis.

Erie was originally a "northern" city, but over time has become more "Midland" when it comes to accent due to the influence of the Pittsburgh media market. The same basic pattern also happened in St. Louis, but in reverse as the city became influenced by Chicago during the 20th century.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Virtually no one from Chicago moves here, or vice versa.

donning my anecdotal cap.....

i've had several pittsburghers come into my life here in chicago over the past several years.

- our upstairs neighbors at our old apartment building were both originally from pittsburgh.

- my friend's wife grew up in pittsburgh, they married 3 years ago, and last year they moved to pittsburgh to be closer to her family (they had their first kid).

- one of my wife's friends from an education project team thing that they both did here in chicago (and how they both ended up in chicago) is pittsburgh born and raised.


i also have a couple friends and a couple more acquaintances in my social circle who were born and raised in cleveland. so, while there may not be a ton of interaction between chicago and the pittsburgh/cleveland area, my anecdotal experiences lead me to believe there's more than people here are claiming.

[mrnyc]

^ no one said there is no chicago-cleveland interaction. there certainly is. cle is half way between chicago and nyc after all.

there is a lot of pitts-cle interaction, from sports to work commutes, to visits on down to ikea trips. there is also something of a cle-pitts metropolis with akron-canton/youngstown between them.