Great Lakes Cities

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The whole article is about the decline in Italian presence on Erie Street. Canadian immigration flows are unrelated to U.S. border controls.

If you don't like the word "dying" and choose to use "declining" or whatever, go for it. Italians don't come to NA anymore in large numbers.

Erie St. is alive and well, it’s certainly not dying! There are new Italian restaurants, cafes, shops and many other services that have opened recently, and they just recently did all new streetscaping so that all of the restaurants can have larger patios.
911 and homeland security were what hit the street hard, not a declining Italian culture. You can walk down the street and still see all kinds of old and Young Italians out and about and speaking Italian.
It is true though, that Italians are not coming over to North America like they did in the past, so it will be a struggle in most places eventually to keep these enclaves alive and authentic!

http://viaitalia.com/business-directory/restaurants/

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

what?

I think he's making a joke at the expense of you know who. C'est la Vie.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

what?

I know it's a landmark now and it'll be around forever, just sayin' that the height of the tower diminishes the other impressive buildings that make up the rest of T.O's waterfront dt district. Photographers have to adjust the zoom to frame the entire tower in, making the other buildings look stubby even though they're yuge.

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

I think he's making a joke at the expense of you know who. C'est la Vie.

It creates a Mōdis Building effect, although not nearly as impressive.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by The North One

No, there was no single dominate little Italy section of the city. There was some little congregation around Gratiot under eastern market in the 20's but Italians existed all around the city including southwest and Dearborn.

I don't a majority of Italians ever actually lived in the "Little Italy" district of any city so the presence of Italians "all around the city" doesn't mean there was no Little Italy.

[Docere]

The Little Italies of Michigan

https://jovinacooksitalian.com/2013/05/10/the-little-italies-of-michigan/

[Docere]

One thing that's common in the US Great Lakes cities is a large Polish/Slavic population. Not so much in Toronto though, the Slavic population is proportionately far less significant and more recent, rather than the "pierogies and polka" early 20th century group.

(Chicago has both more recent and long-established Polish American populations).

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by north 42

Erie St. is alive and well, it’s certainly not dying!

The article indicates its dying. Census data indicates its dying. If you personally think otherwise, go with it.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Few of the turn of the 20th century Little Italies are Italian neighborhoods anymore, in Manhattan or otherwise.

In the NYC area, I don't think there are any remaining 1900-era Italian enclaves anymore, at least per resident demographics. Arthur Ave. was just getting started in 1900, and it isn't that Italian these days anyways.

[Docere]

I know Chicago has a Little Italy, but I suspect it's more of a "legacy" neighborhood. The main Italian areas in Chicago are Norridge and Elmwood Park.

[shappy]

A little late to the thread but an interesting premise. I think that the U.S. Great Lakes cities share quite a bit in common especially Buffalo, Cleveland and Milwaukee. Toronto's Victorian scale makes it a bit different. Houses are narrower and more tightly packed, the commercial storefronts are also narrower. Nothing like Public Square, Grand Circus or Niagara Square with the City Hall. The more modern Nathan Philips Square feels different, Berczy Park is much more intimate, and St. James Park acts more like a New England town common with St Lawrence Hall across the street. The neighbourhoods built around the 1920s and later do closely resemble the archetypal Great Lakes neighbourhood though.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but another region with similar looking cities would be New England/Atlantic Canada. Saint John, NB is a good example on the Canadian side and perhpas Halifax as well. St. John's seems closer to UK but also fits the mold.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

One thing that's common in the US Great Lakes cities is a large Polish/Slavic population. Not so much in Toronto though, the Slavic population is proportionately far less significant and more recent, rather than the "pierogies and polka" early 20th century group.

Over 110, 000 with Polish ethnic origins, with over twice that in the CMA for Toronto is not insignificant though. It's about 4% of the population. Not really that different from the big Midwestern cities which are also often in the high single digit percentages to low double digit percentages (for example, famously Polish Chicago has just 7-10% depending on whether you use the city or metro area, midwestern smaller towns have higher %).

And if the immigrants to Toronto are more recent, you'd expect the cultural impact to be greater than more assimilated Polish groups stateside. It's just that Toronto has far more recent immigrants that are even more recent than the Polish, so they don't stand out that much, whereas the Midwest has a lot less recent immigration, so "older" immigrant groups stand out more.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by shappy

A little late to the thread but an interesting premise. I think that the U.S. Great Lakes cities share quite a bit in common especially Buffalo, Cleveland and Milwaukee. Toronto's Victorian scale makes it a bit different. Houses are narrower and more tightly packed, the commercial storefronts are also narrower. Nothing like Public Square, Grand Circus or Niagara Square with the City Hall. The more modern Nathan Philips Square feels different, Berczy Park is much more intimate, and St. James Park acts more like a New England town common with St Lawrence Hall across the street. The neighbourhoods built around the 1920s and later do closely resemble the archetypal Great Lakes neighbourhood though.

Yes, Toronto does feel more "eastern" in that sense. And it is on the easternmost of the Great Lakes!

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Over 110, 000 with Polish ethnic origins, with over twice that in the CMA for Toronto is not insignificant though. It's about 4% of the population. Not really that different from the big Midwestern cities which are also often in the high single digit percentages to low double digit percentages (for example, famously Polish Chicago has just 7-10% depending on whether you use the city or metro area, midwestern smaller towns have higher %).

And if the immigrants to Toronto are more recent, you'd expect the cultural impact to be greater than more assimilated Polish groups stateside. It's just that Toronto has far more recent immigrants that are even more recent than the Polish, so they don't stand out that much, whereas the Midwest has a lot less recent immigration, so "older" immigrant groups stand out more.

Chicago has a huge Polish immigrant population, I think they're the second largest immigrant group in Chicago after Mexicans. Toronto does have far more Polish immigrants than Detroit, Cleveland or Buffalo (which are basically all 3rd and 4th generation Polish American), but they're just one immigrant group among many. It has no equivalent of Cheektowaga or Parma.

[Capsicum]

Do many people agree with Toronto's placement on the eastern end of a "Great Lakes" megaregion?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Chicago has a huge Polish immigrant population, I think they're the second largest immigrant group in Chicago after Mexicans. Toronto does have far more Polish immigrants than Detroit, Cleveland or Buffalo (which are basically all 3rd and 4th generation Polish American), but they're just one immigrant group among many. It has no equivalent of Cheektowaga or Parma.

How well have the 3rd and 4th generation Polish Americans kept their culture alive in small towns like Cheektowaga versus big cities like Chicago?

On the one hand, those small towns may be more likely to preserve a time slice of diaspora culture from the time period they arrived in, like those German Mennonite, Amish, and Hutterite towns in the Midwest or Ukrainian "block settlements" in Canada, speaking dialects carried over from the "old country" back in the day. But on the other hand, big cities like Toronto and Chicago are more likely to have continuous waves of new immigration making up for assimilation by "revitalizing" the ethnic community.

[Docere]

Cheektowaga (population 75,000) is 1/3 Polish ancestry. It seems to be a "pierogies and polka" Polish American suburb.

Dyngus Day is a big deal in Buffalo.

http://buffalonews.com/2014/04/20/dyngus-days-neighborhood-roots/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdGrH1kQ9W4

[Capsicum]

Food seems to be one aspect of a diaspora's culture that persists quite a bit longer than other things often, like say, language.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The article indicates its dying. Census data indicates its dying. If you personally think otherwise, go with it.

Look, I live in this city, I think I know better than you! That article was not completely accurate, and tried very hard to make a case that just wasn’t there. Also, there are more Italian restaurants on the street now than ever! Is it changing? Sure, no neighbourhood stays the same for ever, but it’s not dying in any sense!

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by north 42

Look, I live in this city, I think I know better than you! That article was not completely accurate, and tried very hard to make a case that just wasn’t there. Also, there are more Italian restaurants on the street now than ever! Is it changing? Sure, no neighbourhood stays the same for ever, but it’s not dying in any sense!

Crawford only agrees with Census data when it shows that something bad is going on in the Midwest. When something good is going on in the midwest, sources like the Census and Wikipedia are “fake news”.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Docere

I know Chicago has a Little Italy, but I suspect it's more of a "legacy" neighborhood. The main Italian areas in Chicago are Norridge and Elmwood Park.

Chicago’s Little Italy is under the Eisenhower Expressway.