Rural Commuter Rail

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Some of those aren't maintained by Mr. Potvin or by MOOSE, but a few (or just one actually) of those can still be found in the wayback machine.

https://web.archive.org/web/201610210652...t-passenger-rail-national-capital-region

No need to go to the wayback machine. The article exists, the link is just to an old location. This is a matter of website maintenance.

https://gpo.ca/2016/09/30/support-for-passenger-rail-in-national-capital-region/

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by Charles5

Well, while the MOOSE webpage may be up again, it's certainly not being maintained. There are numerous broken links and there have been no updates for a significant period of time.

I wrote an email to MOOSE (Joseph Potvin ) several months ago highlighting the broken links I had found and was informed that the issue would be dealt with, however no indication to date that any action has been taken.

The following links do not work.

Interesting. Helpful list. Thanks for compiling.

[OCCheetos]

The CTA has released its ruling on the Prince of Wales bridge and is ordering the city to either restore the connection within a year, or file for discontinuance.

Article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-transportation-agency-rail-line-prince-of-wales-bridge-1.4540076


My question is why is the city saying it would take two years to restore the connection to the bridge?

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The CTA has released its ruling on the Prince of Wales bridge and is ordering the city to either restore the connection within a year, or file for discontinuance.

Article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-transportation-agency-rail-line-prince-of-wales-bridge-1.4540076


My question is why is the city saying it would take two years to restore the connection to the bridge?

They know it can be done in less time so its just BS from them. The point is that if they don't fix the bridge and cease operations on it then MOOSE can step in and do it themselves.

My prediction is the City will fix the bridge and extend LRT to Gatineau to stop MOOSE from using the bridge.

[1overcosc]

Could the federal cabinet intervene and get this off the city's back? Does the process allow the federal cabinet a veto power of sorts? (A lot of situations like this DO give them that power).

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Could the federal cabinet intervene and get this off the city's back? Does the process allow the federal cabinet a veto power of sorts? (A lot of situations like this DO give them that power).

Based on current laws they can't

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

They know it can be done in less time so its just BS from them. The point is that if they don't fix the bridge and cease operations on it then MOOSE can step in and do it themselves.

My prediction is the City will fix the bridge and extend LRT to Gatineau to stop MOOSE from using the bridge.

Well, that would still be a win.

[Truenorth00]

What happens if they file for discontinuance?

[Charles5]

Actually, the order doesn't require the City to restore the connection within a year from now. What it says is that the City is required to "Take the steps necessary to restore the ORL, including the POW Bridge, to a point where it could be made operable within 12 months of an Agency order under Division IV of the CTA "

My interpretation of that is that they may need to do partial restoration work now, and in the future, only once another railway company puts in a request to CTA to use the line, and only if and when the CTA grants that other company's request, only after that point would the City have 12 months to get the line to a state that the other company can run across it.

In other words, and to quote another article, it needs to be brought up "to a state of repair that it could be used on 12 months notice"

If the City believed it was possible to actually complete restoration within 12 months from its current state, they could theoretically do nothing for now until such time as a request for running rights is made to CTA and the CTA grants it and creates the actual order.

I don't see the decision on the CTA website yet but a copy of the CTA decision can be found at the following link.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What happens if they file for discontinuance?

I think it would have to be offered up to the municipality or another railway, who can purchase it based on a formula. Otherwise track is sold for scrap.

Moose might be able to try to claim they are a railway and try to buy it, but then they would assume the liabilities, including maintaining it to a "fixable within 12 months"

I think the best option for the city is to discontinue.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think it would have to be offered up to the municipality or another railway, who can purchase it based on a formula. Otherwise track is sold for scrap.

Moose might be able to try to claim they are a railway and try to buy it, but then they would assume the liabilities, including maintaining it to a "fixable within 12 months"

I think the best option for the city is to discontinue.

Good Day.

yup. and thus would there continue to be demolition by neglect.
or else Jimbo would finally get that inherited monkey off his back (his PoV).
He would be able to either or both turn it into a ped/cycle bridge to the island, or a bus bridge, or utterly demolish it.
If any rail or MUP proposal was to develop, he could try to put the financing purely and totally on NCC/fed.
A bus bridge could be shared with Gatineau, unless the preliminary study outcome actually does recommend lrt, and even then only if they want to cross the river.
From Jimbo's PoV.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think it would have to be offered up to the municipality or another railway, who can purchase it based on a formula. Otherwise track is sold for scrap.

Moose might be able to try to claim they are a railway and try to buy it, but then they would assume the liabilities, including maintaining it to a "fixable within 12 months"

I think the best option for the city is to discontinue.

But why? The city has made no other indication that they plan to discontinue the bridge. They mayors of both Ottawa and Gatineau now support a rail link, and the current plans for Stage 2 support that idea (double platform at Bayview).

It seems like less a question of "will", or "should" the city restore the bridge, but "when" will the city restore the bridge. Sooner or later, they'll have to spend the money to do it, and in my opinion anyway, they should keep it.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Charles5

Actually, the order doesn't require the City to restore the connection within a year from now. What it says is that the City is required to "Take the steps necessary to restore the ORL, including the POW Bridge, to a point where it could be made operable within 12 months of an Agency order under Division IV of the CTA "

My interpretation of that is that they may need to do partial restoration work now, and in the future, only once another railway company puts in a request to CTA to use the line, and only if and when the CTA grants that other company's request, only after that point would the City have 12 months to get the line to a state that the other company can run across it.

In other words, and to quote another article, it needs to be brought up "to a state of repair that it could be used on 12 months notice"

If the City believed it was possible to actually complete restoration within 12 months from its current state, they could theoretically do nothing for now until such time as a request for running rights is made to CTA and the CTA grants it and creates the actual order.

I don't see the decision on the CTA website yet but a copy of the CTA decision can be found at the following link.

The city seems convinced that it would take 3 years minimum though (and 2 to just to restore the connection...???).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

But why? The city has made no other indication that they plan to discontinue the bridge. They mayors of both Ottawa and Gatineau now support a rail link, and the current plans for Stage 2 support that idea (double platform at Bayview).

It seems like less a question of "will", or "should" the city restore the bridge, but "when" will the city restore the bridge. Sooner or later, they'll have to spend the money to do it, and in my opinion anyway, they should keep it.

It is a money sink.

Frankly the city shouldn't be in the interprovincial transit business. It should be a joint project with Gatineau or a federal lead.

Also, if they discontinue they are out of the interprovincial train business and don't have to deal with Moose trolling them at the CTA.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

But why? The city has made no other indication that they plan to discontinue the bridge. They mayors of both Ottawa and Gatineau now support a rail link, and the current plans for Stage 2 support that idea (double platform at Bayview).

It seems like less a question of "will", or "should" the city restore the bridge, but "when" will the city restore the bridge. Sooner or later, they'll have to spend the money to do it, and in my opinion anyway, they should keep it.

Good Day.

Agreed - most definitely agreed. But compared to Jimbo, we're rail diehards.
He was, is, and will continue to be anti-rail unless he sees BIG advantage out of it. City building ? Not on your nellie.
Efficiency ? Only if short-term for fast ROI. PR ? Absolutely, if it pays for itself in photo-ops and re-electability.

To use PoW in some way is absolutely a no-brainer, to us, but we continue to discuss how to best use it - MUP, bus, rail, combo thereof. He does not want to discuss it at all.

He has done nothing except neglect PoW for his entire mayorality, except when forced to acknowledge its existence by outside demands.

Here indeed is hoping that this will be the biggest force to acknowledge it and DO something with it - ever.

Get off your BFA, Jimbo. Get to work, instead of photo-ops, and back-room back-stabbing. (Aside - also time for Transportation committee and Transit committee to both get to work, working around him and forcing him.)

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is a money sink.

Frankly the city shouldn't be in the interprovincial transit business. It should be a joint project with Gatineau or a federal lead.

Also, if they discontinue they are out of the interprovincial train business and don't have to deal with Moose trolling them at the CTA.

The threat of an impending CTA order seems like the perfect excuse to go ask around for money. (Especially from the feds).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The threat of an impending CTA order seems like the perfect excuse to go ask around for money. (Especially from the feds).

Starting a discontinuation process could also incentivize the Feds to do something, although Feds would rather sink money into the Trim road extension.

[lrt's friend]

The purchase of the Prince of Wales bridge is a relic of the Chiarelli plan that we have totally trashed. There is absolutely no incentive to use it by the current regime. As far as they are concerned, let it fall in the river. It will take a new group of politicians at City Hall before anything is done with it, meanwhile, the cost of rehabilitation grows every year.

Its now Cumberland and Stittsville or bust. Everything else is secondary or forgotten entirely.

I spoke with an older gentleman today, a native of Ottawa who expressed concern about how scewed the city has become in his lifetime, how it has spread out almost exclusively east and west. I told him this was the product of the Queensway and in the future, the Confederation Line. Unless we plan differently, this will present more and more problems in the future.

[Charles5]

In my opinion, I would like to see the O-train line be extended across the POW Bridge as part of LRT Stage 2. If necessary, funding for this could come (at least partially) from a delay on completing the airport link which in my mind is a lower requirement at this time.

[Kitchissippi]

In my opinion, I would rather see the narrow, high maintenance steel trusses on the POW replaced with a wide modern deck suitable for buses, bikes and pedestrians, and eventually double-tracked trains.

Because STO is leaning towards retaining their BRT for the near future, it makes more sense to have them provide service to Bayview. Not all commuters from Gatineau go downtown, many of them go to Tunney's or Confederation Heights, so I doubt the fears of Bayview being overwhelmed. The STO buses can easily make a loop around the CBD in the morning if this is an issue. The afternoon rush hour is not as critical.