Great Lakes Cities - Page 34

Steely Dan · #**661** Posted **Feb 13, 2018, 10:41 PM**

avoiding the whole semantics hornets nest of the word "rowhouse", 1900 city population is probably a decent enough proxy for extent of 19th century development, though with the understanding that, generally speaking, US great lakes cities have lost FAR more of what they had than canadian cities due to white flight/urban "renewal".

great lakes city populations in 1900:

chicago --------- 1,698,575
cleveland --------- 391,768
buffalo ------------ 352,387
detroit ------------ 285,704
milwaukee ------- 285,315
toronto ----------- 208,040
rochester --------- 162,608
toledo ------------- 131,822
duluth -------------- 52,969
erie ----------------- 52,733
hamilton ----------- 52,634

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

also, the neighborhoods where rowhouses would have been built in the largest numbers were likely consumed by the colossal central business/industrial districts overspreading the center. the historical breadth of chicagos cbd far outstrips anything not on a coast in north america.

yes.

The North One · #**662** Posted **Feb 13, 2018, 10:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite

It's a fair assessment, from an urbanist point of view at least. A lack of vast neighbourhoods of pre-war rowhouses or Art Deco skyscrapers as the trade-off for very little urban decay and inner-city violence.

Or you could be Montreal and have both with no trade-offs.

pj3000 · #**663** Posted **Feb 13, 2018, 10:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

1900 city population is probably a decent enough proxy for extent of 19th century development, though with the understanding that, generally speaking, US great lakes cities have lost FAR more of what they had than canadian cities due to white flight/urban "renewal".

great lakes city populations in 1900:

chicago --------- 1,698,575
cleveland --------- 391,768
buffalo ------------ 352,387
detroit ------------ 285,704
milwaukee ------- 285,315
toronto ----------- 208,040
rochester --------- 162,608
toledo ------------- 131,822
erie ------------------ 52,733
hamilton ------------ 52,634

had to add Erie in there since it never gets any love...

Steely Dan · #**664** Posted **Feb 13, 2018, 10:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

had to add Erie in there since it never gets any love...

whoops.

fixed.

Docere · #**665** Posted **Feb 13, 2018, 11:16 PM**

1940/41:

Chicago 3,396,808
Detroit 1,623,452
Cleveland 878,336
Toronto 667,457
Milwaukee 587,472
Buffalo 575,901
Rochester 324,975
Toledo 282,349
Hamilton 166,337
Erie 116,955

Docere · #**666** Posted **Feb 13, 2018, 11:53 PM**

Here's a timeline of pre-war population "milestones" in the Great Lakes cities (Canadian census is in the "1" years):

Population first exceeds 100,000:

1860 Chicago (112,872)
1870 Buffalo (117,714)
1880 Cleveland (160,146), Detroit (116,340), Milwaukee (115,587)
1890 Toronto (181,220), Rochester (133,896)
1900 Toledo (131,822)
1920 Hamilton (114,151)
1930 Erie (115,967), Duluth (101,463)

Population first exceeds 500,000:

1880 Chicago (503,185)
1910 Cleveland (560,663)
1920 Detroit (993,078), Toronto (521,893), Buffalo (506,775)
1930 Milwaukee (573,076)

Population first exceeds 1,000,000:

1890 Chicago (1,099,850)
1930 Detroit (1,568,662)

MonkeyRonin · #**667** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 2:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

US Great Lakes cities have better Pizza than Toronto.

Border war!!!

Fightin' words there. I'd wager Toronto would have the most proper pizza - we have by far the most (and the most recent) Italians, after all.

Capsicum · #**668** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 2:34 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Fightin' words there. I'd wager Toronto would have the most proper pizza - we have by far the most (and the most recent) Italians, after all.

Many Americans don't even consider the way actual Italians do pizza to be the most proper anyways.

For example, NYC's mayor De Blasio ate pizza with a fork like actual Italians, and got some flak from New Yorkers for doing so.

Centropolis · #**669** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 2:51 AM**

edited to include the promethial midwest.

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

Here's a timeline of pre-war population "milestones" in the Great Lakes cities (Canadian census is in the "1" years):

Population first exceeds 100,000:

1850 St. Louis (104,978)
1850 Cincinnati (115,435)

1860 Chicago (112,872)
1870 Buffalo (117,714)
1880 Cleveland (160,146), Detroit (116,340)
1890 Toronto (181,220), Rochester (133,896)
1900 Toledo (131,822)
1920 Hamilton (114,151)
1930 Erie (115,967), Duluth (101,463)

Population first exceeds 500,000:

1880 Chicago (503,185)
1910 Cleveland (560,663)
1920 Detroit (993,078), Toronto (521,893), Buffalo (506,775)
1930 Milwaukee (573,076)

Population first exceeds 1,000,000:

1890 Chicago (1,099,850)
1930 Detroit (1,568,662)

Docere · #**670** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:00 AM**

And St. Louis surpassed the 500,000 mark in 1900.

Centropolis · #**671** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:06 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Fightin' words there. I'd wager Toronto would have the most proper pizza - we have by far the most (and the most recent) Italians, after all.

chicago needs a new, close rival to smack it around, keep it from becoming too smug, keep it strong.

Steely Dan · #**672** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:09 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

Here's a timeline of pre-war population "milestones" in the Great Lakes cities (Canadian census is in the "1" years):

Population first exceeds 100,000:

1860 Chicago (112,872)
1870 Buffalo (117,714)
1880 Cleveland (160,146), Detroit (116,340)
1890 Toronto (181,220), Rochester (133,896)
1900 Toledo (131,822)
1920 Hamilton (114,151)
1930 Erie (115,967), Duluth (101,463)

Population first exceeds 500,000:

1880 Chicago (503,185)
1910 Cleveland (560,663)
1920 Detroit (993,078), Toronto (521,893), Buffalo (506,775)
1930 Milwaukee (573,076)

Population first exceeds 1,000,000:

1890 Chicago (1,099,850)
1930 Detroit (1,568,662)

Milwaukee also first passed 100K in 1880 along with cleveland and detroit.

Docere · #**673** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:11 AM**

Fixed.

Steely Dan · #**674** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:12 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

chicago needs a new, close rival to smack it around, keep it from becoming too smug, keep it strong.

The funny thing is, chicago and Toronto aren't really all that close in any meatingful way, despite both being great lakes cities. The whole foreign country thing (along with being at the two opposite ends of the region) keeps them pretty nicely separated into their own independent hemispheres.

Centropolis · #**675** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:16 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

The funny thing is, is that chicago and Toronto aren't really all that close in any meatingful way, despite both being great lakes cities. The whole foreign country thing (along with being at the two opposite ends of the region) keeps them pretty nicely separated in their own independent hemispheres.

it's a 1.5 hour flight in arguably the same region, in definitely the same economy. it's going to happen.

Capsicum · #**676** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:18 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

The funny thing is, is that chicago and Toronto aren't really all that close in any meatingful way, despite both being great lakes cities. The whole foreign country thing (along with being at the two opposite ends of the region) keeps them pretty nicely separated in their own independent hemispheres.

Doesn't it seem like Toronto and Chicago have historically had more of a rivalry with the next biggest city in its own country (Toronto vs. Montreal, and Chicago vs. NYC) rather than looking to one another across the border as rivals?

Capsicum · #**677** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:19 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

it's a 1.5 hour flight in arguably the same region, in definitely the same economy.

From what it seems, flights from Chicago to Toronto and vice versa are quite popular. Porter Airlines at least in the last few years I remember, advertised those quite a lot (in both cities).

So, clearly some people are doing business or having some ties (family, tourism, or whatever) between the two cities, even if it's not a huge connection.

Centropolis · #**678** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:20 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Doesn't it seem like Toronto and Chicago have historically had more of a rivalry with the next biggest city in its own country (Toronto vs. Montreal, and Chicago vs. NYC) rather than looking to one another across the border as rivals?

i've felt more toronto vs nyc, lately. which makes this juicer.

Centropolis · #**679** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:21 AM**

also, the border between canada and the u.s. is becoming nothing.

Steely Dan · #**680** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:22 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

it's a 1.5 hour flight in arguably the same region

I'm talking about psychological, cultural, and social closeness.

People in chicago rarely, if ever, consider toronto.

And I have to imagine that people in Toronto rarely, if ever, consider chicago.