Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Colin4567

I've never understood the Chinatown protestors. Chinatowns are quite often urban slums and why anyone wouldn't want to turn it around I have no idea.



This is so dumb. There's something positive to be said of apologizing for past wrongs and even offering compensation, as these need to be corrected. HOWEVER, this simply looks like race-baiting identity politics. Besides, isn't this kind of segregation? Sort of defeats the whole "civil rights" thing.

Exactly how I feel. Politics more and more seem to be a circle and not a line.

Again, it may be for a good cause, but intentionally trying to build a racial enclave really seems strange to me and at odds with trying to move past racism. If it is just a cultural center and the rest is allowed to evolve naturally, that’s fine, but it seems that they are going beyond that.

[Migrant_Coconut]

IF the original black community from Hogan's Alley was still around and ready to move back in, then by all means, go for it. As it is, they've moved on, and it's time City Council did too - creating some stupid Disneyland version of the past like they did with Gastown is going to be at best hilarious and at worst downright offensive.

[WarrenC12]

Council has unanimously approved the idea to rename the NEFC with an indigenous name... Greens appear to support the plan but NPA wants "more time to study" aka kick the can down the road until they can scrap it, or maybe scrap a lot of the subsidized housing.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Makes sense - "NEFC" always seemed like more of a placeholder. Though the new one needs to be easy to spell...

[Colin4567]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

IF the original black community from Hogan's Alley was still around and ready to move back in, then by all means, go for it. As it is, they've moved on, and it's time City Council did too - creating some stupid Disneyland version of the past like they did with Gastown is going to be at best hilarious and at worst downright offensive.

Yeah at some point it's almost like "Come here and look at how these AFRICAN AMERICAN FOLK used to live!" Obviously this isn't meant to be racist in any way, it's just to show that you're almost turning the whole thing into a caricature of the culture at that point. At least Gastown has iconic brick roads and old buildings, although the whole thing could use a bit of a scrubbing (as in finding a way to keep the people off the streets and into whatever method works and does them better). Recreating Hogan's Alley completely will just add more to the stock Vancouver has enough of - million dollar teardowns.

[GenWhy?]

We've all seen the plans. Where did it say it's recreating Hogan's Alley?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

We've all seen the plans. Where did it say it's recreating Hogan's Alley?

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/hogans-alley-chinatown-898-main-street-vancouver

At least this is the vision of the architects, and I'm sure they've been given "directions" by CoV.

[officedweller]

http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/nefc-draft-plan-information-displays.pdf

[GenWhy?]

Exactly, it's not a "recreation". It's a new neighbourhood that doesn't look at all like the original.

[Vin]

Back in 2014:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm still waiting to see a fully costed plan. That's the #1 decision maker for me.

I will say that the Powell St. overpass construction closed a vital commuter route into the city, and although there were some delays, it wasn't traffic Armageddon. Since that was temporary, there were also no other additional routes added.

With the viaduct removal, we should be getting some additional capacity on other routes.

I will say that the pro-car/anti-bike/anti-transit people, both in government and the general population, really need to form a more cohesive vision before they turn into a complete joke. They repeatedly cry wolf at any changes and are consistently shown to be wrong.

With the viaduct removal ballooning from 100mil to 1.7bil, what say you now?

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Exactly, it's not a "recreation". It's a new neighbourhood that doesn't look at all like the original.

There are many types of "re-creation". In this case, it's to artificially re-create a black neighbourhood and bring back the culture. That's segregation, and that's what forumers do not want to see, and that's what everyone had been talking about.


I'm pretty sure if the viaducts were to be at Powell Street and Vision wants to take them now, they would come up with a new version of "Japan Town". However, without the viaducts, Powell street can rot forever, and be part of the downtown eastside.

It is apparent that the City has no interest to rekindle past cultures pertaining to a neighbourhood. Hogan Alley is just a ploy to scam gullible Vancouverites.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

With the viaduct removal ballooning from 100mil to 1.7bil

Say, what? The report says "Approximately $1.7 billion contribution towards public amenities and critical infrastructure". That's nothing to do with the cost of the viaducts, that's the entire Northeast False Creek Project and it's the estimated public benefit, not the cost!

The total cost of removal and street network reconfiguration is $360 million. That's the bill for all the work - there's also an offset value from creating two city blocks currently underneath the viaducts that will be redeveloped. Some of that will be non-market housing.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Vin

Back in 2014:



With the viaduct removal ballooning from 100mil to 1.7bil, what say you now?


There are many types of "re-creation". In this case, it's to artificially re-create a black neighbourhood and bring back the culture. That's segregation, and that's what forumers do not want to see, and that's what everyone had been talking about.


I'm pretty sure if the viaducts were to be at Powell Street and Vision wants to take them now, they would come up with a new version of "Japan Town". However, without the viaducts, Powell street can rot forever, and be part of the downtown eastside.

It is apparent that the City has no interest to rekindle past cultures pertaining to a neighbourhood. Hogan Alley is just a ploy to scam gullible Vancouverites.

If anybody thinks that any of this will result in anything but the bunch of condos starting at 1 mill (probably 2 mill by the time things start to roll) they are highly delusional. This will be the same as Olympic village (bunch of promises about social housing, daycares, artist studios, etc that will all turn into nothing but market price condos).

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WBC

If anybody thinks that any of this will result in anything but the bunch of condos starting at 1 mill (probably 2 mill by the time things start to roll) they are highly delusional. This will be the same as Olympic village (bunch of promises about social housing, daycares, artist studios, etc that will all turn into nothing but market price condos).

There are 1,104 units in the Olympic Village. 754 are condos. The rest are rental, including housing co-ops. They are mixed income housing managed by a non profit operator with approximately 50% of the units being occupied by core-need households paying below market rents based on their incomes.

There' a childcare as part of the Community Centre in the Olympic Village.

In the rest of Southeast False Creek (so far) there are two 100% shelter rate non-market buildings, and another Housing Co-op that opened last week (part of the Concert development, built by them and handed over to the City of Vancouver). There's another childcare on the podium of the Executive Group 'West' condo on West 2nd Avenue.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Say, what? The report says "Approximately $1.7 billion contribution towards public amenities and critical infrastructure". That's nothing to do with the cost of the viaducts, that's the entire Northeast False Creek Project and it's the estimated public benefit, not the cost!

The total cost of removal and street network reconfiguration is $360 million. That's the bill for all the work - there's also an offset value from creating two city blocks currently underneath the viaducts that will be redeveloped. Some of that will be non-market housing.

Thanks for injecting some common sense. As for my request to see something "fully costed", what I mean is who is paying for what up front, and who stands to benefit in the years to come.

If the CoV is spending $360M and recouping $20M/year in annual revenue via property taxes, parking, and so on, it's a win IMO.

Looking at it another way, all else equal, this will lower my property taxes as there's a significant new source of taxation dollars. Win for me.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

I won't say that Vancouver doesn't have its choke points, or moments or scenarios of bad traffic, and doesn't need to have better and more holistic transportation planning. But all things considered, this city is far easier to get around than people care to appreciate.

I travel a lot, to many different cities, and frequently. Vancouver traffic, overall, is a dream compared to most metros I witness.

You drive to Langley / Maple Ridge / North Van / Delta or do you just drive around the municipality of Vancouver? I am in Jacksonville right now for example and for all its issues atleast you can get around everywhere in a decent amount of time unlike many parts of metro Vancouver hat have really reached a point where congestion just keeps rapidly increasing now with no alternative option. The costs to the economy must be staggering and its only getting worse. Though this city has taken things to the other extreme and I would not advocate only building highways. But still Vancouver is pretty bad and worse of all there is nothing planned to alleviate the situation or give people other options while the city continues to grow (not because of Canadians but because of immigration I might add, which is important because it masks the issues that are driving actual residents out).

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Until the cut fills up with latent demand (which would probably happen almost right away) and we're right back where we started.

Great. The infrastructure is being used and doing its job. Moving x number of people and goods who happen to be driving the economy and real job growth.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Thanks for injecting some common sense. As for my request to see something "fully costed", what I mean is who is paying for what up front, and who stands to benefit in the years to come.

If the CoV is spending $360M and recouping $20M/year in annual revenue via property taxes, parking, and so on, it's a win IMO.

Looking at it another way, all else equal, this will lower my property taxes as there's a significant new source of taxation dollars. Win for me.

Not a single square foot of additional housing is being created. Not one. We use FSR and as such no new density is being created. No new tax revenue. Nothing. You know this yet you keep saying the opposite.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

this will lower my property taxes as there's a significant new source of taxation dollars. Win for me.

lower property taxes. they said the GST would be temporary.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Say, what? The report says "Approximately $1.7 billion contribution towards public amenities and critical infrastructure". That's nothing to do with the cost of the viaducts, that's the entire Northeast False Creek Project and it's the estimated public benefit, not the cost!

The total cost of removal and street network reconfiguration is $360 million. That's the bill for all the work - there's also an offset value from creating two city blocks currently underneath the viaducts that will be redeveloped. Some of that will be non-market housing.

How gullible you are! Have you forgotten the Malkin Connector? 360mil does not include that.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

lower property taxes. they said the GST would be temporary.

I've owned property in Vancouver since 2000. The furthest record I have at hand is for property taxes in 2010. They were higher than what I paid in 2017. If you knew how property taxes worked you'd understand why.

And for the record, GST and other consumption taxes are far more economically efficient than income taxes.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

How gullible you are! Have you forgotten the Malkin Connector? 360mil does not include that.

The new connector is needed even if the $90 million was spent on keeping the existing viaducts and giving them 50 years more life, or $120 million to replace them.

The Malkin Connector (or Williams, or wherever) isn't directly related to the removal of the viaducts. It's being considered now because it makes sense because the road network is being reworked, but it's a Prior Street by-pass. The Strathcona residents gave their support for losing the viaducts provided the traffic was reduced through their neighbourhood. Prior Street is a residential street which carries (during peak hours especially) arterial volumes of traffic. More to the point, it's become a major bottleneck where traffic can be held up for as much as 10 minutes because there are now consistent freight trains being run across the crossing very frequently, while only a year or two ago there were only a couple a day, at most. The development of False Creek Flats could also benefit from a better road network.

[logan5]

I wish I could post the rendering, but with the inclusion of French and Italian colours, the City is suggesting that that this will be (or they hope it will be) a culturally diverse area. This backlash against "Hogan's Alley" doesn't make sense.