YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

YVR-PEK on CA is increasing to 11 weekly for the entire summer schedule this year.
EDIT: Actually YVR-PEK is going 11 weekly from beginning of April right through mid October.

It's been interesting to see CA shuffle it's schedule on YVR-PEK in the last few years.

In S16, it was 11x weekly B77W, double daily A332 from July to September.

In S17, it was down to 9-10x weekly all summer (april to October), albeit all on B77W (mix of 2 class and 3 class).

This year, S18, they are resuming 11x weekly, all on 2 class high density B77W.

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I think with the YEG CA cargo route postponed/cancelled there may be a couple more weekly frequencies come available. However, they may be holding those in case they wish to restart the cargo route. Or maybe start a YVR one

YUL has gained a frequency every summer since the start of CA's operations.

S15 3x weekly
S16 4x weekly
S17 5x weekly
S18 6x weekly

Part of those frequency increases are either from YVR or YEG, as both have lost CA frequencies in the last 2 years. Don't think there are any more left. But then again, don't have access to capacity numbers on the Canada-China bilateral, so can't know for sure.

http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=105042

Originally Posted by mezzanine

WRT YVR-GRU/south america, if it does come to pass and AC really can't make the numbers work, it would be interesting to see what plans CA has, especially if a new JV is coming soon between AC and CA.

Regardless of GRU, any new JV between air canada and air china i suspect will bring a lot of change for YVR.

CA already operates PEK-MAD-GRU. Dont think a JV with AC will persuade them all of a sudden to drop MAD-GRU and start YVR-GRU. A joint venture means sharing profits/costs on flights between the two countries who's airlines are forming the JV. It doesn't usually include 5th freedom flights. Besides, China doesn't have any more fifth freedom rights left out of Canada. In the current agreement, they can only name 2 beyond points (check link above), and HAV and MEX are it. One of the two will need to get dropped, or the agreement amended for CA to start PEK-YVR-GRU.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

CA already operates PEK-MAD-GRU. Dont think a JV with AC will persuade them all of a sudden to drop MAD-GRU and start YVR-GRU. A joint venture means sharing profits/costs on flights between the two countries who's airlines are forming the JV. It does't usually include 5th freedom flights. Besides, China doesn't have any more fifth freedom rights left out of Canada. In the current agreement, they can only name 2 beyond points (check link above), and HAV and MEX are it. One of the two will need to get dropped, or the agreement amended for CA to start PEK-YVR-GRU.

i dunno, a new JV makes a whole lot of reshuffling between CA and AC possible.

MAD-GRU on CA has been operating since ~ 2006, but more for political reasons on CA's part. it's a route with ~ 4 other airlines flying it and i suspect yields have been consistently poor. I would wonder if CA would consider moving GRU to YVR to serve a nascent market if agreements allow and there is cooperation from AC on feed, revenue sharing etc.

[nname]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

i dunno, a new JV makes a whole lot of reshuffling between CA and AC possible.

MAD-GRU on CA has been operating since ~ 2006, but more for political reasons on CA's part. it's a route with ~ 4 other airlines flying it and i suspect yields have been consistently poor. I would wonder if CA would consider moving GRU to YVR to serve a nascent market if agreements allow and there is cooperation from AC on feed, revenue sharing etc.

The funny thing is, CZ had public state that they also intend to start CAN-MAD/BCN-GRU/GIG. They don't care with poor yield, they just want a SA route so they fly to all continents!

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

In the current agreement, they can only name 2 beyond points (check link above), and HAV and MEX are it. One of the two will need to get dropped, or the agreement amended for CA to start PEK-YVR-GRU.

I wonder if CAN-YVR-MEX on CZ is even counted as fifth freedom since they cannot sell ticket for YVR-MEX sector....

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by nname

I wonder if CAN-YVR-MEX on CZ is even counted as fifth freedom since they cannot sell ticket for YVR-MEX sector....

Yeah, I saw that on thenoflyzone's link. nothing in the agreement that would prevent a fifth freedom, other than reservations on transport Canada's side and their refusal.

Passenger-combination and/or all-cargo services may be operated in either or both directions by an airline(s) designated by the Government of Canada on the following route:

Points in

• Canada = Any point or points
• Intermediate Points = Two (2) points to be named by Canada
• Points in China = Ten (10) points to be named by Canada
• Points Beyond = Two (2) points to be named by Canada

I suspect the work is cut out for the negotiators on both CA and AC's sides even with the existing agreement, but with a lot of new things possible if they are working for a JV.

[Johnny Aussie]

Not a big change but YVR-MEL being bumped up to 4 weekly again over the winter. The press release re the year round service did mention three weekly year round and it was showing only three weekly in December last week.

Woo hooo

As for CZ YVR-MEX unless they are carrying cargo (?) this would not be a fifth freedom route. Just a tech stop.

[thenoflyzone]

Dont know if this was mentioned, but YVR-BOS will operate for 8 more weeks this coming summer.

On the schedules from 18 May til 23 September. Last year was from 23 June til 4 September.

Still a daily A319.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Dont know if this was mentioned, but YVR-BOS will operate for 8 more weeks this coming summer.

On the schedules from 18 May til 23 September. Last year was from 23 June til 4 September.

Still a daily A319.

Yes that was mentioned a few weeks ago... along with YZF starting earlier too (mid Sept) - that may go year round.

IAD, IAH and MIA also on the short term cards.

[Lancaster]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Dont know if this was mentioned, but YVR-BOS will operate for 8 more weeks this coming summer.

On the schedules from 18 May til 23 September. Last year was from 23 June til 4 September.

Still a daily A319.

Have to think that this will be one of the first US routes from YVR that will get a CS300 once they start rolling in. Seems like there's a good opportunity to get onward connections to SYD/BNE/MEL in the winter months.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Yes that was mentioned a few weeks ago... along with YZF starting earlier too (mid Sept) - that may go year round.

IAD, IAH and MIA also on the short term cards.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I though IAH was already year-round. I know IAD is seaasonal, and MIA is yet to come, but looking at the route map on yvr.ca, Houston appears year-round

[zahav]

Also, the Air Canada flight will now be departing at 845 instead of 1430. So doesn't seem like they are targetting international connections anymore?

The AC flight returning to mainline is good I think, yes a better product but also if competition is intense, streamling to mainline and slightly fewer seats is a great compromise. Calgary is losing Aeromexico altogether, less than a year after they started I believe? And yes Westjet is adding daily service there (same as YVR) but to lose Aeromexico altogether is not good for that airport. They are already really struggling at growing international. So if our situation is same aircraft with slightly fewer seats to compensate for all the extra capacity other airlines are adding, it's not a bad thing

I'm curious to hear what comes of that Turkish Airlines negotiation in May. All the buzz is they will be adding 3 weekly IST flights

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by zahav

Also, the Air Canada flight will now be departing at 845 instead of 1430. So doesn't seem like they are targetting international connections anymore?

The AC flight returning to mainline is good I think, yes a better product but also if competition is intense, streamling to mainline and slightly fewer seats is a great compromise. Calgary is losing Aeromexico altogether, less than a year after they started I believe? And yes Westjet is adding daily service there (same as YVR) but to lose Aeromexico altogether is not good for that airport. They are already really struggling at growing international. So if our situation is same aircraft with slightly fewer seats to compensate for all the extra capacity other airlines are adding, it's not a bad thing

I'm curious to hear what comes of that Turkish Airlines negotiation in May. All the buzz is they will be adding 3 weekly IST flights

Morning flights to Mexico are definitely better for connecting to other destinations like Cancun or Puerto Vallarta and more popular with vacationers, I would think. I'm guess that makes the RT flight around 6PM... instead of 7am. That will be popular with most people who go to Mexico city.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by zahav

Also, the Air Canada flight will now be departing at 845 instead of 1430. So doesn't seem like they are targetting international connections anymore?

The AC flight returning to mainline is good I think, yes a better product but also if competition is intense, streamling to mainline and slightly fewer seats is a great compromise. Calgary is losing Aeromexico altogether, less than a year after they started I believe? And yes Westjet is adding daily service there (same as YVR) but to lose Aeromexico altogether is not good for that airport. They are already really struggling at growing international. So if our situation is same aircraft with slightly fewer seats to compensate for all the extra capacity other airlines are adding, it's not a bad thing

I'm curious to hear what comes of that Turkish Airlines negotiation in May. All the buzz is they will be adding 3 weekly IST flights

YVR-MEX is a growing O&D market so relying less on the Canadian end. Definitely easy connections from BC and AB on the AC flight though. The WS flight departs at 0700 so no feed on the Canadian end. AM departs at 0640 and 2320 daily while 4O departs at 2130 the days it operates. That's still a lot of seats added in a very short period of time... will have to see how this all gets absorbed with decent yields.

Yes YYC has struggled with non-sun-destination international flights. Recently their international growth has been entirely to sun destinations with support from other Western Canadian cities for feed. And this has been almost entirely due to Westjet growth and the test of rouge 763s on some routes. MAN, CDG, GLA are routes lost recently and downgauges on 2 of the 3 AC long-haul routes coming this summer. Very stagnant on remaining existing long-haul routes in terms of frequencies and capacity as well. The one really telling event (non event in YYC's case) is the recent announcement of Hainan adding two weekly flights to TSN and SZX from YVR. They could have added 2 weekly flights on YYC-PEK but obviously they feel YVR-TSN-SZX is better. YYC-Asia very stagnant as Hainan is just sticking with the three weekly 332... no upguages.... and AC rolling back NRT to a 763 and originating in YYZ.

Oh yeah... and the Turkish thing... well apparently they have the rights now... whether they act on it or not is another thing.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Oh yeah... and the Turkish thing... well apparently they have the rights now... whether they act on it or not is another thing.

No official source yet that they have additional rights.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/policy/air-bluesky-menu-2989.htm

Page updated late January.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

YVR-MEX is a growing O&D market so relying less on the Canadian end. Definitely easy connections from BC and AB on the AC flight though. The WS flight departs at 0700 so no feed on the Canadian end. AM departs at 0640 and 2320 daily while 4O departs at 2130 the days it operates. That's still a lot of seats added in a very short period of time... will have to see how this all gets absorbed with decent yields.

Yes YYC has struggled with non-sun-destination international flights. Recently their international growth has been entirely to sun destinations with support from other Western Canadian cities for feed. And this has been almost entirely due to Westjet growth and the test of rouge 763s on some routes. MAN, CDG, GLA are routes lost recently and downgauges on 2 of the 3 AC long-haul routes coming this summer. Very stagnant on remaining existing long-haul routes in terms of frequencies and capacity as well. The one really telling event (non event in YYC's case) is the recent announcement of Hainan adding two weekly flights to TSN and SZX from YVR. They could have added 2 weekly flights on YYC-PEK but obviously they feel YVR-TSN-SZX is better. YYC-Asia very stagnant as Hainan is just sticking with the three weekly 332... no upguages.... and AC rolling back NRT to a 763 and originating in YYZ.

Oh yeah... and the Turkish thing... well apparently they have the rights now... whether they act on it or not is another thing.

Technically speaking, HU is adding seats to YYC. There's 9 more Y class seats on the 332 then the 788.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Technically speaking, HU is adding seats to YYC. There's 9 more Y class seats on the 332 then the 788.

My point is since the commencement of that route, it has been stagnant at 3 weekly on 332s. The Dreamliner was rumoured to be going on that route. Slightly smaller but better equipment.

[nname]

Singapore Airlines had been granted license to operate charter service between Canada and Singapore...

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2018-22

hmm.. wonder where would they run the charter to...

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Technically speaking, HU is adding seats to YYC. There's 9 more Y class seats on the 332 then the 788.

HU needs their B788s to launch SZX-MAD and PEK-TIJ-MEX.

PEK-YYC is far shorter than both those routes, which is the main reason why it is reverting back to the A332.

Same reason why SZX-TSN-YVR is launched with the A332. The route doesn't need the economics of the dreamliner.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by nname

Singapore Airlines had been granted license to operate charter service between Canada and Singapore...

https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/a-2018-22

hmm.. wonder where would they run the charter to...

So I'm not familiar with what charter means. Is that a one time thing or what's the frequency in this?

[teriyaki]

Found this gem, maybe someone more well versed in legal can make more sense of what charter means.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-88-58/index.html

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by teriyaki

Found this gem, maybe someone more well versed in legal can make more sense of what charter means.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-88-58/index.html

Sheesh, a charter service. I wish we could get it back as a scheduled destination. They have planes that'll do it nonstop now.