Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Care to share? Because I'm afraid you DO need gates and fences in order to prevent Surrey adding to all the LRT collision videos.



Now you're talking ridership vs coverage; we can concentrate service on a few specific corridors, or we can spread it out all over the region. Vancouver proper is having that argument right now: spend money on a SkyTrain line, or more B-Lines and buses?

The problem with the plan isn't as much that it's being forced on the SoF region, but that LRT for SNG/Langley costs nearly as much the SkyTrain + BRT option without getting the same service or ridership, and still leaves the rest of SoF without proper coverage (so ultimately achieving neither). Since Surrey's LRT is basically a B-Line for the price of a SkyTrain, why not just spend the money on more B-Lines?



But Trainguy's NOT talking about adding more lanes, he's talking about keeping the existing ones; 4 lanes - 2 lanes (for LRT) + 2 more lanes = 4 lanes. Given the choice between 4 car lanes + 2 LRT lanes, or 2 car + 2 LRT + 2 car, the former is better.

Human intelligence only applies if there's something to apply intelligence to. If 108th and 100th are both jammed, then the only real option is to sit there on 104th/105th and hope for the best.

Ok... let's play this scenario out. I regularly travel between KG and 104th and 108th ave and 157th using the 156th st underpass. How do I get to my destination in the same time I do now using alternate routes?

#1 Detour north 4 blocks and take 108th. 108th is often jammed with cars trying to connect with 104th at 154th st. The left turn lane at 104th and 154th is a short light and it often takes several light cycles to turn left. I can't imagine how bad it would get with more cars avoiding 104th ave.

#2 Detour south 4 blocks to 100th ave. That's not any better. 100th ave is just 2 lanes from KGB east. They are widening it to 4 lanes from 140th but 100th ave has a lot of lights which will just slow things down in addition to the increase in traffic from the other 104th avoiders.

Why should I have to detour just to avoid a "bad Idea" and spend more time and gas? Is making our lives more difficult part of the LRT plan? Seems like it.

[xd_1771]

For anyone curious about the projected numbers on 104 Avenue and the other Whalley-Guildford corridors, the city did release a corporate report outlining their traffic modelling results for 104 Ave with the LRT system.

Here's the important bit:

Associated capital improvements are already underway on the adjacent corridors of 100 Avenue and 108 Avenue to accommodate the redistribution of the longer distance east-west through traffic trips away from 104 Avenue. These adjacent corridor improvements and reductions in 104 Avenue capacity were included into traffic model simulations, and it was forecast that 40-50% of through traffic will utilize 108 Avenue and 100 Avenue as an alternative arterial corridor during and after construction of the SNG LRT project. Unfortunately, with the reduction of capacity along 104 Avenue, signalization priority for SNG LRT, and increase in overall pedestrian activity (to and from LRT stations), 104 Avenue will be unable to accommodate the remaining 16,000 vpd without significant delays and queues.

With the 105 Avenue project included, forecast traffic volumes are approximately 10-12,000 vpd, and 104 Avenue operates within acceptable levels of congestion. This projected volume for 105 Avenue is well within typical collector road volumes. Even with growth in ridership on the SNG LRT line and the 105 Avenue in place, by 2030, both 100 Avenue and 108 Avenue will be approaching capacity, and by 2040, 104 Avenue will require four travel lanes due to the population and employment growth in the City Centre, the 104 Avenue corridor and the Guildford Town Centre areas.

Basically, the congestion would have been unmanageable without the 105 Ave corridor they're now ramming through the Hawthorne Park.

Now that they're building 105 Ave (expected to handle around 10-12k vehicles per direction, which I actually find really high for a "minor collector" road) 104 Ave is expected to operate within "acceptable levels of congestion", whatever that means. My take is that means it will still be very congested, but the big reveal I think is the line that admits that 100 Ave (with 4 lanes) and 108 Ave will be approaching capacity only around 7 years after LRT opens. Essentially saying that even after 7 years to build ridership and adjust travel habits, it will still be difficult to manage congestion without spending even more to widen roadways in the area.

Considering that the city's original plans had LRT going through to 156th St (taking way the 2 lanes there too) I'm quite certain that they have little if any concern for the congestion that will be created by the LRT project and loss of traffic capacity on 104th. I find "road diet" to be a really poor excuse. Downtown Surrey is growing, the Fraser Valley is growing, and traffic volumes will grow significantly by virtue of that alone. Clearly, to the city LRT is the #1 priority even if the congestion is so bad it limits the economic potential of both Guildford and downtown.

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

For anyone curious about the projected numbers on 104 Avenue and the other Whalley-Guildford corridors, the city did release a corporate report outlining their traffic modelling results for 104 Ave with the LRT system.

Here's the important bit:

Basically, the congestion would have been unmanageable without the 105 Ave corridor they're now ramming through the Hawthorne Park.

Now that they're building 105 Ave (expected to handle around 10-12k vehicles per direction, which I actually find really high for a "minor collector" road) 104 Ave is expected to operate within "acceptable levels of congestion", whatever that means. My take is that means it will still be very congested, but the big reveal I think is the line that admits that 100 Ave (with 4 lanes) and 108 Ave will be approaching capacity only around 7 years after LRT opens. Essentially saying that even after 7 years to build ridership and adjust travel habits, it will still be difficult to manage congestion without spending even more to widen roadways in the area.

Considering that the city's original plans had LRT going through to 156th St (taking way the 2 lanes there too) I'm quite certain that they have little if any concern for the congestion that will be created by the LRT project and loss of traffic capacity on 104th. I find "road diet" to be a really poor excuse. Downtown Surrey is growing, the Fraser Valley is growing, and traffic volumes will grow significantly by virtue of that alone. Clearly, to the city LRT is the #1 priority even if the congestion is so bad it limits the economic potential of both Guildford and downtown.

of course they don't care. This whole streetcar is vanity project from the start to appeal to real estate developers. In fact, they want more congestion because they think it'll make people stay in Surrey more, which is a very idiotic mindset.

Heck, even as a "collector" road, 105th is still poorly designed because not only it is only 2 lanes, but it has to navigate through 2 school zones so people will avoid it which means they will have tore through a park for nothing.

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

For anyone curious about the projected numbers on 104 Avenue and the other Whalley-Guildford corridors, the city did release a corporate report outlining their traffic modelling results for 104 Ave with the LRT system.

Here's the important bit:

Basically, the congestion would have been unmanageable without the 105 Ave corridor they're now ramming through the Hawthorne Park.

Now that they're building 105 Ave (expected to handle around 10-12k vehicles per direction, which I actually find really high for a "minor collector" road) 104 Ave is expected to operate within "acceptable levels of congestion", whatever that means. My take is that means it will still be very congested, but the big reveal I think is the line that admits that 100 Ave (with 4 lanes) and 108 Ave will be approaching capacity only around 7 years after LRT opens. Essentially saying that even after 7 years to build ridership and adjust travel habits, it will still be difficult to manage congestion without spending even more to widen roadways in the area.

Considering that the city's original plans had LRT going through to 156th St (taking way the 2 lanes there too) I'm quite certain that they have little if any concern for the congestion that will be created by the LRT project and loss of traffic capacity on 104th. I find "road diet" to be a really poor excuse. Downtown Surrey is growing, the Fraser Valley is growing, and traffic volumes will grow significantly by virtue of that alone. Clearly, to the city LRT is the #1 priority even if the congestion is so bad it limits the economic potential of both Guildford and downtown.

To what improvements on 108th and 100th are they talking about. 100th is only now being four laned as we know from 140th to 148th with 2 new traffic lights in Green Timbers where there used to be none. And 108th is getting a new light for some reason at 142nd. How is that an improvement?

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

It's not like there are only two alternate routes to taking 104th, especially for people coming from farther away their are numerous alternate routes, such as moving east west and then North south afterwards.

But then they're avoiding 104th altogether; the point of rapid transit is to attract people from far away.

[Trainguy]

And you wonder why it takes forever to get anything built in BC...


8 February 2018

SNC Wins Big in Bidding
for $6.3 Billion REM Project

Montreal Quebec - Canadian engineering firm SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. emerged as the big winner in bidding for Montreal's new light rail transit project, clinching not only the contract to build the $6.3 billion network's infrastructure but also work to supply the trains.

Construction of the 67 kilometre system, known as the Reseau Express Metropolitain (REM), is scheduled to start in April with the first passengers planned for the summer of 2021.

When completed, it will be the fourth largest automated light rail transit line in the world.

The announcement was made at a morning press briefing Thursday at the Montreal headquarters of the Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec.

The pension fund is leading the ambitious project, in which the Quebec and Canadian governments are minority investors.

Details of the construction plans and confirmation of the project's $6.3 billion price tag, which is within 5 percent of preliminary estimates, means the REM will now officially move forward.

There had been considerable doubts that the project could get off the ground, doubts that grew late last year when the Caisse said it needed more time to negotiate with bidders.

"The REM is now a reality," Caisse chief executive officer Michael Sabia said in a statement.

The Caisse picked a group led by SNC-Lavalin to oversee all engineering, procurement, and construction, including the building of all necessary bridges, tunnels, and stations.

The contract is the largest of two awarded, representing roughly 80 percent of the project's total price-tag, or roughly $5 billion.

The Caisse picked French train maker Alstom and its partner in this bid, SNC-Lavalin, to supply some 200 train cars and related equipment.

That contract is smaller but still tops $1 billion.

An offer by Bombardier Inc. to supply the rail cars was not chosen.

This marks another blow for the Montreal-based manufacturer's North American rail business, which is struggling to deliver product to customers like the City of Toronto amid supply chain difficulties.

This past August, Bombardier was dropped from the bidding to supply a new fleet of subway cars for New York's Metropolitan Transit Authority.

In a memo to staff at the time, a senior Bombardier rail executive said the company's "poor performance and serious delays" on a separate, smaller New York subway deal sealed its fate on the larger deal.

The Caisse is one of SNC-Lavalin's largest shareholders.

It also holds a 30 percent stake in Bombardier's rail business.

The pension fund says the tender process was rigorous and monitored by external auditors to ensure its integrity.

The REM will link several Montreal suburbs to downtown as well as Trudeau International Airport.

The idea of bringing in the Caisse as the project sponsor was hatched by Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard as a way for the province to avoid shouldering the entire cost of the plan.

Nicolas Van Praet.

[MIPS]

If bombardier keeps this up they won't be thinking rail transit in a decade.

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by MIPS

If bombardier keeps this up they won't be thinking rail transit in a decade.

They'll at least have an order for the Broadway subway in a decade, given how things are progressing.

[Colin4567]

I'll concede this point to Reece that he mentioned in the Canada Line forum - LRT could potentially be extended to 4 cars based on distance between major intersections. That said, why does Surrey insist on capping it at 2?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Colin4567

I'll concede this point to Reece that he mentioned in the Canada Line forum - LRT could potentially be extended to 4 cars based on distance between major intersections. That said, why does Surrey insist on capping it at 2?

Probably because they don't actually want to close the minor intersections - Surrey's non-arterial grid is tangled enough as it is.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

And you wonder why it takes forever to get anything built in BC...


8 February 2018

SNC Wins Big in Bidding
for $6.3 Billion REM Project

I'm going to throw Montreal a bone here...

When did they have their metro system extended last? Us: last year. Now I get it, our extensions are important but our second largest city hasn't had any work done in a LONG time. Before our Evergreen extension, we had the Canada Line, and before that the Millennium line; all within 15 years.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[GreaterMontréal]

When did they have their metro system extended last?

3 Metro stations in Laval in 2007, Orange Line, 5km, $757M

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Orcair]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

With the results in Montreal I think we can expect to see Alstom building vehicles for the Surrey LRT. Good news imo, they have higher top speed if we make an extension onto an old rail row.

I thought the REM trainsets were going to be more like the Skytrain since they won't be manually operated, iirc.

I know the latest renderings give the appearance of being LRT but I had assumed this was just creative license...

[Colin4567]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

With the results in Montreal I think we can expect to see Alstom building vehicles for the Surrey LRT. Good news imo, they have higher top speed if we make an extension onto an old rail row.

I'm usually function-over-aesthetics but in defence of Alstom their trains look a lot cooler than Bombardier's Flexity Freedom and Flexity Outlook

[Nites]

For skytrain

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Bobert]

Originally Posted by scryer

-snip-

Before our Evergreen extension, we had the Canada Line, and before that the Millennium line; all within 15 years.

This is a good perspective that many people on the forum simply lack. We've had quite a few expansions, and fairly major expansions if I might add.