Great Lakes Cities

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

my favorite memory regarding an outsider's surprise at the size and scale of the great lakes:


my british friend's parents were visiting chicago (and the US midwest) for the first time. i took the family up to milwaukee for a little day-trip. upon arriving at the milwaukee art museum, my friend's dad looked out across the vast blue expanse of lake michigan and remarked:


friend's dad: "my god, another unfathomably large lake just like the one down in chicago. these great lakes truly are remarkable, we've nothing like them back in blighty."

me: "oh no, this is still the same lake as the one down in chicago, it's all lake michigan."

friend's dad: "you mean we've just been traveling for a couple of hours on the motorway and we're still along the shore of the same lake? unbelievable! exactly how large is this lake?"

me: "about 300 miles long in the north-south direction."

friend's dad: "— hell! 300 miles long! that's almost the length of england itself! and you yanks call this vast sea a mere lake?"

me: "well, it's all freshwater....... and there are 4 more of them to boot."

friend's dad: "unbelievable." <shaking his head in disbelief>


he had some prior awareness that the great lakes were big, but when we traveled from chicago up to milwaukee, he assumed that we had traveled from a city on one great lake to another city on a different great lake, his mind had come nowhere close to wrapping itself around the true size and scale of the great lakes, because back home in britain, what he knew as "lakes" were simply small puddles in comparison to a body of water like lake michigan.

I've been in Toronto with foreign visitors who'd jokingly argue with us that Lake Ontario was "the sea" and couldn't possibly be a lake.

It depends on what part of the world people are from of course. But many many people around the world aren't used to non-oceanic bodies of water where you can't see the other side.

[Steely Dan]

^^ yeah Warren dunes state park is excellent too.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

the documented average temperature for ALL of lake michigan in mid to late summer is still warmer than the pacific at malibu. i've swam at santa barbara, malibu (and other places on the coastline west of there to point mugu santa monica), hermosa beach... and as a matter of course western michigan water temps during the second half of summer have always been eminently more swimmable from experience. i've definitely been in warmer water at sleeping bear than southern california, no question. theres also plenty of scenic enough beaches with sizable dunes south of there.

point being, nobody usually talks about how unswimmable the pacific is in southern california. people get in the water anyway.

Ever met a Floridian? Yes we would say the Pacific is unswimmable.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Having grown up in chicago, I never encountered a single body of water that I couldn't see land on the other side of (other than lake michigan itself) until I saw the ocean for the first time in new england at the age of 8.

Probably because there aren't many large lakes around Chicago. In Michigan, any big inland lake won't be viewable much of the time. Lake St. Clair, Houghton Lake, Mullet Lake and the like, you aren't seeing the opposite shore from most angles. Any random body of water that's more than 4-5 km across won't generally be viewable.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

So I find the great lakes to be much more ocean-like in appearance than lake-like, compared against the 8 billion little lakes that speckle the entire upper midwest.

We have a cottage on Lake Huron, and, most of the time, it looks/feels the same as any large inland lake. Doesn't feel anything like an ocean. The big difference is when it's windy (since waves on Great Lakes are wind rather than tides). But it's calm/glassy more often than not.

[IrishIllini]

If NYC were closer to the Great Lakes, Crawford would be signing praises about their beaches, scenery, and temperature. So unknowingly transparent.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

If NYC were closer to the Great Lakes, Crawford would be signing praises about their beaches, scenery, and temperature. So unknowingly transparent.

If NYC were on a Great Lake, Crawford would literally be making the exact opposite points that he is making here, so predictable of a NYC booster (and loathing of his Midwestern homeland) that he is. All about moving the goal post around

[the urban politician]

In my years on this earth, other than bigger waves and perhaps a different tint there is absolutely nothing that makes Lake Michigan look different than the Atlantic Ocean.

Anybody who says otherwise is just being a giant —

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think it's pretty easy to find swimmable water that's as warm if not warmer in the Great Lakes in mid-summer than the ocean beaches are in, for example, Los Angeles County.

If we're talking the SE US then it's a different story.

But if the beaches of legend in LA are considered swimmable in the summer with the average temperatures there, then the Great Lakes are definitely swimmable too.

Yeah, Lake Erie being the shallowest and southernmost is the warmest and is warmer than anywhere on the Pacific coast, and is just as warm and often warmer than the Atlantic off of New Jersey and anywhere north of there.

If the winter is mild and the Lake doesn't freeze, in a hot summer, the waters off of Presque Isle in PA get into the mid-80sF by late July to mid September.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yes, but this is misleading. The Great Lakes under discussion are not the swimmable Great Lakes.

Lake Erie, in particular, is very warm and swimmable much of the summer, but is easily the crappiest, least scenic and most polluted lake. The "pretty" Great Lakes (basically Lake Superior and northern third of Lake Michigan, and a bit of Lake Huron, arguably) as depicted in this thread are generally pretty cold.

As a general rule, you can have scenic Great Lakes, or you can have swimmable Great Lakes. Pretty rare to have both.

This is 100% total —. If you're talking about swimming in Lake Erie near Toledo or somewhere, then sure, I wouldn't swim near where a swampy river enters a body of water either, unless I felt like having an algae bath. However, Toledo and Ohio do need to get their act together and stop poisoning their own drinking water.

But that is not true for most of Lake Erie. Lake Erie being so polluted is a notion that belongs back in the 1980s at best. Because it is the shallowest, it is certainly more susceptible to algal blooms (particularly on its western end where it is a vast shallow zone), but also because it is shallowest, it cycles its water MUCH faster than the other Lakes. Lake Erie completely turns its water over every 25 years. Some large zones of the lake cycle their water within a couple months.



As you can see form the bathymetry map above, there is good reason why the waters in the western basin can easily become polluted. That's not the case for eastern Lake Erie. The water is remarkably clear and clean, owing in some part to the inudation of invasive zebra mussels that arrived in the 1990s, but also beacuse Cleveland stopped dumping their — (literally) and toxics into the Lake in the 70s and 80s.

I've taught an environmental health course to grad students specifically about Lake Erie water quality and advise the PA Sea Grant program on ecosystem/human health research. Plus, I'm an avid sailor, kayaker, and fisherman on Lake Erie and spend a significant portion of my life on Lake Erie. To suggest that it's not swimmable is not living in reality. 4-5M visitors per year to Presque Isle State Park wouldn't happen if Lake Erie was somehow crappy, polluted, and unswimmable.

100% total — hyperbolic Crawford post.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yes, but this is misleading. The Great Lakes under discussion are not the swimmable Great Lakes.

Lake Erie, in particular, is very warm and swimmable much of the summer, but is easily the crappiest, least scenic and most polluted lake. The "pretty" Great Lakes (basically Lake Superior and northern third of Lake Michigan, and a bit of Lake Huron, arguably) as depicted in this thread are generally pretty cold.

As a general rule, you can have scenic Great Lakes, or you can have swimmable Great Lakes. Pretty rare to have both.

clearly this is misleading as well as its obvious you have only seen very little if anything of lake erie shoreline sites and islands.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Having grown up in chicago, I never encountered a single body of water that I couldn't see land on the other side of (other than lake michigan itself) until I saw the ocean for the first time in new england at the age of 8.

So I find the great lakes to be much more ocean-like in appearance than lake-like, compared against the 8 billion little lakes that speckle the entire upper midwest.

I find your claim of there being countless lakes and rivers you can't see to the other side of to be incredibly dubious. Yeah, maybe the amazon, but the amazon is an outlier among rivers just as the great lakes are among lakes.

100% Agree..Not being to see the other side of a lake a la' the Great Lakes is certainly rare..That's what's so fascinating about being on any one of them. That and seeing Ocean vessels traversing on the lakes. Here in Ontario, the land of the lakes, Lake Nipissing is the only other one I can think of where you can see the horizon any which direction..Parts of the Saint Lawrence River as well.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Yeah, Lake Erie being the shallowest and southernmost is the warmest and is warmer than anywhere on the Pacific coast, and is just as warm and often warmer than the Atlantic off of New Jersey and anywhere north of there.

If the winter is mild and the Lake doesn't freeze, in a hot summer, the waters off of Presque Isle in PA get into the mid-80sF by late July to mid September.



This is 100% total —. If you're talking about swimming in Lake Erie near Toledo or somewhere, then sure, I wouldn't swim near where a swampy river enters a body of water either, unless I felt like having an algae bath. However, Toledo and Ohio do need to get their act together and stop poisoning their own drinking water.

But that is not true for most of Lake Erie. Lake Erie being so polluted is a notion that belongs back in the 1980s at best. Because it is the shallowest, it is certainly more susceptible to algal blooms (particularly on its western end where it is a vast shallow zone), but also because it is shallowest, it cycles its water MUCH faster than the other Lakes. Lake Erie completely turns its water over every 25 years. Some large zones of the lake cycle their water within a couple months.



As you can see form the bathymetry map above, there is good reason why the waters in the western basin can easily become polluted. That's not the case for eastern Lake Erie. The water is remarkably clear and clean, owing in some part to the inudation of invasive zebra mussels that arrived in the 1990s, but also beacuse Cleveland stopped dumping their — (literally) and toxics into the Lake in the 70s and 80s.

I've taught an environmental health course to grad students specifically about Lake Erie water quality and advise the PA Sea Grant program on ecosystem/human health research. Plus, I'm an avid sailor, kayaker, and fisherman on Lake Erie and spend a significant portion of my life on Lake Erie. To suggest that it's not swimmable is not living in reality. 4-5M visitors per year to Presque Isle State Park wouldn't happen if Lake Erie was somehow crappy, polluted, and unswimmable.

100% total — hyperbolic Crawford post.

and don't count western lake erie and toledo out. maumee bay state park is fantastic. and there is nothing like the protected wildlife and marsh areas nearby along lake erie in the northern great lakes. sure its a very different look than say gitchee gammi park in duluth, mn for example, but just as wild, rugged and gorgeous. these areas are what remains of the 'great black swamp' that was nw ohio and se michigan.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Razor

100% Agree..Not being to see the other side of a lake a la' the Great Lakes is certainly rare..That's what's so fascinating about being on any one of them.Here in Ontario, the land of the lakes, Lake Nipissing is the only other one I can think of where you can see the horizon any which direction..Parts of the Saint Lawrence River as well.

as a really stupid kid thing one time we walked on lake erie when it was frozen or nearly frozen out so far you could not see any shoreline. like at all in any direction. it was like being at the north pole or something. we had to follow our trail in the snow back. there were waves frozen in place and schools of frozen fish in clear ice looking up at us and all kinds of weird sights. a very, very interesting and obviously memorable experience. i do not recommend anyone ever try that though, it was beyond dumb to do.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Razor

100% Agree..Not being to see the other side of a lake a la' the Great Lakes is certainly rare..That's what's so fascinating about being on any one of them.Here in Ontario, the land of the lakes, Lake Nipissing is the only other one I can think of where you can see the horizon any which direction..Parts of the Saint Lawrence River as well.

leech lake in minnesota, which is 10ish miles across longways (theres a neck of the lake that is a bit longer) is the largest lake i've been on where you can still see the other side. it's a sliver, though, you're basically seeing the treetops on the other side.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

If NYC were closer to the Great Lakes, Crawford would be signing praises about their beaches, scenery, and temperature. So unknowingly transparent.

LOL he once made a case that Paris was flat despite it's famous urban hills, but then turns around and wants to act like some little random hills in Staten Island add so much to the natural scenery to the NYC area.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Razor

100% Agree..Not being to see the other side of a lake a la' the Great Lakes is certainly rare..That's what's so fascinating about being on any one of them. That and seeing Ocean vessels traversing on the lakes. Here in Ontario, the land of the lakes, Lake Nipissing is the only other one I can think of where you can see the horizon any which direction..Parts of the Saint Lawrence River as well.

It depends on what's on the other side as well. You have to go pretty far downriver on the St. Lawrence into eastern Quebec to not be able to see the other side looking from south to north on a clear day. That's because on the north side at least there are mountains.

I am pretty sure you can see 40-50 km across in some places. Maybe a bit more.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

All of this explains why I was completely underwhelmed the first time I saw the ocean.

This is me as well, being used to Chicago's lakeshore when I went to Miami for the first time I thought "this is the ocean?" I mean it's obviously beautiful but it was nothing really different or special in comparison to Chicago's lakefront. In fact, I thought it was an inferior experience, the salty water is torture to swim in and jet skiing — there, ocean water stings your eyes and if any sort of drop accidentally gets in your mouth it tastes disgusting. I also went in February and the water was pretty cold.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by The North One

This is me as well, being used to Chicago's lakeshore when I went to Miami for the first time I thought "this is the ocean?" I mean it's obviously beautiful but it was nothing really different or special in comparison to Chicago's lakefront. In fact, I thought it was an inferior experience, the salty water is torture to swim in and jet skiing — there, ocean water stings your eyes and if any sort of drop accidentally gets in your mouth it tastes disgusting. I also went in February and the water was pretty cold.

Ok, let's not get carried away now...

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Probably because there aren't many large lakes around Chicago. In Michigan, any big inland lake won't be viewable much of the time. Lake St. Clair, Houghton Lake, Mullet Lake and the like, you aren't seeing the opposite shore from most angles.

Ha! i've actually been to houghton lake (michigan's largest inland lake) and you can absolutely see across the vast majority of it. there might be a very specific angle here or there were you can catch a narrow slice of an open water horizon, but it's nothing at all like standing on the beach in warren dunes state park on lake michigan and seeing a sand beach extend both north and south of you to infinity with a full 180 degree sweep of ocean-like vastness spread out before you.

it's the latter kind of feel which leads to the countless stories of first-time visitors to the great lakes not being able to wrap their head around the fact that they're looking out at a freshwater lake and not a part of the ocean.


here's houghton lake (a thin line of trees is clearly visible across the lake):


source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houghton_Lake_(Michigan)



and here's the beach at warren dunes on lake michigan (nothing but open blue water vastness for as far as the eye can see):


source: http://weekendsightseer.com/summer-sun-and-sand-at-michigan-warren-dunes/

Originally Posted by Crawford

Any random body of water that's more than 4-5 km across won't generally be viewable.

that's the distance to a water horizon, but because most lakes have some rise to the land around them, along with trees growing upon that land (at least in the midwest), the distance required for not being able to see any land or trees on the other side of a lake is actually much longer (more on the order of 12+ miles). the VAST majority of lakes in the world do not not have open water distances in a 180 degree sweep that exceed 12 miles.

Originally Posted by Crawford

We have a cottage on Lake Huron, and, most of the time, it looks/feels the same as any large inland lake..

then we'll simply have to agree to disagree because we will never see eye to eye on this one if you actually believe that.

having spent my entire life on this planet exploring the shores of the great lakes and visiting i don't even know how many dozens of smaller inland lakes all across michigan, wisconsin, and minnesota, i can say that a typical great lakes shore feels more similar to a typical ocean shore to me than it does to a typical small inland lake shore.

that doesn't mean that i think a great lakes shore feels exactly like an ocean shore in every conceivable way (there are indeed some notable differences, smell and typical wave size foremost among them), just that it feels closer to an ocean shore TO ME than it does to a small lake shore.

and i don't think i'm alone in that opinion.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Lol Crawford as usual...

Anyhow, I actually agree about swimming in the ocean, it's not really pleasant compared to swimming in Midwestern freshwater during the summer. I have a cottage in Wisconsin on a large river which connects to some of the largest inland lakes in the US that aren't great lakes and I absolutely love swimming in then in the summer. The water off my dock is also fantastic, about 15' deep and usually very warm, the only exception is after torrential thunderstorms when the river water is saturated with cold rainwater runoff. I can actually boat from my cottage to Chicago if I had a big enough boat. It would take a couple of days and about a thousand dollars of gas, but it's doable.

Also this talk of not being able to see across other lakes is nonsense. Winnebago is one of the largest natural lakes in the continental US by surface area and you can see across it from all angles because, guess what, it takes geography to create a large lake so there are large bluffs and moraines all around it which are easily visible from anywhere along the shoreline. It's 10x30 miles in size.

This is 8-10 miles of open water from the top of the 200' cliffs at High Cliff state park.


Wikipedia

Oh and the Winnebago catchment is one of the greatest fisheries on Earth supporting many of the delicious sport fishing species mentioned in earlier posts.

[Steely Dan]

^ oh, i forgot about lake winnebago. it's one of the 5 biggest natural freshwater lakes in the lower 48 (not including the great lakes).

it dwarfs houghton lake, or any of the other inland lakes in michigan, and as your pic shows, you can clearly see across to the other side of the lake.

one has to wonder if crawford ever gets tired of being so full of — all of the time.

i hope no one was satisfied with where the goal posts are currently located because there's a textbook crawford goal post move coming in 3...... 2....... 1......