Phoenix Development News (3)

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by stutteringpunk

Here's hoping the amusement park gets built. I know there are always going to be weather challenges with running a theme park here, but if the Cleveland/Detroit area can support Cedar Point, there's no reason Phoenix can't sustain one here, especially since Vegas already has a small one indoors. We have 7-8 months of fairly comfortable weather every year. It's about time we gave people more things to do.

I think the weather here is more supportive of a theme park than Northern Ohio. Cedar Point is only open during part of the year (closed in the winters). A theme park here could be open all year long. Sure the crowds may be thinner in the summer, but it could still be open. They can always install misters all over the park and have a water park. It would do just fine.

A good comparison is the Phoenix Zoo - it's slower in the summer, but people still go there during the summer and spend the whole time outside.

[sh9730]

Originally Posted by nickw252

I think the weather here is more supportive of a theme park than Northern Ohio. Cedar Point is only open during part of the year (closed in the winters). A theme park here could be open all year long. Sure the crowds may be thinner in the summer, but it could still be open. They can always install misters all over the park and have a water park. It would do just fine.

A good comparison is the Phoenix Zoo - it's slower in the summer, but people still go there during the summer and spend the whole time outside.

I have not posted too much here about the plans since it isn't Skyscraper related really.

But the plans call for much based on water. Phase I as a matter of fact is a 100K indoor water park with hotel - similar to what is being built in Scottsdale - BUT, this plan also includes a wild animal park, extreme sports themed park with a man made lake, Go Karting - much much more.

Anyway....like I said - not really topical here so I haven't gone into detail.

Search on "Dreamport Villages" and you can get an idea.

[CrestedSaguaro]

It takes a lot more than Detroit and Cleveland to support Cedar Point (and I will add Kings Island to this since they are commonly thought of together as far as Ohio amusement parks go).

Toledo, Dayton, Columbus, Cincinnati, Youngstown and even Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Lexington, Louisville and yes, even Chicago are all around a 2 to 5 1/2 hour drive to either of these parks depending on which one they are visiting. That's 20+ million potential visitors divided up between these 2 parks that are no farther than 3 1/2 hours apart from each other. This is not even counting the multitude of smaller cities, towns and rural visitors. Also, Cedar Point and Kings Island have more coaster track than anywhere in the world making them a top international coaster enthusiast draw.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but saying just because Cedar Point can do it, then Arizona can is not correctly stated. There's a reason these 2 Ohio parks are huge draws. They also do have limited operating times during Fall and Winter for Halloween and Winterfest, so they are not completely non-operational due to colder weather.

Even with long lines at Cali parks, I am not so sure we would draw large enough numbers from Cali unless a park here featured some stellar attractions. It will pretty much have to rely on Phoenix and Tucson.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

It takes a lot more than Detroit and Cleveland to support Cedar Point (and I will add Kings Island to this since they are commonly thought of together as far as Ohio amusement parks go).

Toledo, Dayton, Columbus, Cincinnati, Youngstown and even Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Lexington, Louisville and yes, even Chicago are all around a 2 to 5 1/2 hour drive to either of these parks depending on which one they are visiting. That's 20+ million potential visitors divided up between these 2 parks that are no farther than 3 1/2 hours apart from each other. This is not even counting the multitude of smaller cities, towns and rural visitors. Also, Cedar Point and Kings Island have more coaster track than anywhere in the world making them a top international coaster enthusiast draw.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but saying just because Cedar Point can do it, then Arizona can is not correctly stated. There's a reason these 2 Ohio parks are huge draws. They also do have limited operating times during Fall and Winter for Halloween and Winterfest, so they are not completely non-operational due to colder weather.

Even with long lines at Cali parks, I am not so sure we would draw large enough numbers from Cali unless a park here featured some stellar attractions. It will pretty much have to rely on Phoenix and Tucson.

Your point is well-taken but you're not factoring in Great America in Chicago area so it's really two major parks (Busch Gardens in St. Louis too) in that large geographical area. Another example of a similar population footprint would be Busch Gardens Williamsburg with probably 7 million within 2 hours drive. There's also King's Dominion in same general area so TWO major theme parks drawing on that (admittedly affluent) 7-8 million population. Phoenix area with 6 million within 2 hours is a definite possibility. There would have to be a larger attraction factor than just coasters of course and it would have to be A-grade amenities but it's possible. Don't think it will happen soon but the demographics are getting close.

[fawd]

Had a conversation with two Thunderbirds at the Open today. They are anticipating 250,000 people on Saturday....

[stutteringpunk]

Ever since I saw renderings, I've always thought something like this could work here. Different enough from the California parks to bring in tourists, and indoors, so it could be open year round.

Warner Brothers in Abu Dhabi

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

Your point is well-taken but you're not factoring in Great America in Chicago area so it's really two major parks (Busch Gardens in St. Louis too) in that large geographical area. Another example of a similar population footprint would be Busch Gardens Williamsburg with probably 7 million within 2 hours drive. There's also King's Dominion in same general area so TWO major theme parks drawing on that (admittedly affluent) 7-8 million population. Phoenix area with 6 million within 2 hours is a definite possibility. There would have to be a larger attraction factor than just coasters of course and it would have to be A-grade amenities but it's possible. Don't think it will happen soon but the demographics are getting close.

Exactly. These parks smaller than Cedar Point and are a much better comparison for Arizona. My main point was that Cedar Point was supported by a much larger popolus than Cleveland and Detroit can support. I would say some of the Six Flags parks would be more appropriate comparisons since they are typically more metro based than regional or internationally based. Yes, they do draw out of town visitors, but not on the scale that Cedar Point does.

A park the size of Worlds of Fun in Kansas City could work well or Kings Island by itself which supports Cincinnati, Dayton and Columbus and is a populated area equivelant to Phoenix. But again, and as you said, would need something much more than just some coasters.

Wasn't there a plan for some kind of Hard Rock Amusement Park here at one point or another?

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Exactly. These parks smaller than Cedar Point and are a much better comparison for Arizona. My main point was that Cedar Point was supported by a much larger popolus than Cleveland and Detroit can support. I would say some of the Six Flags parks would be more appropriate comparisons since they are typically more metro based than regional or internationally based. Yes, they do draw out of town visitors, but not on the scale that Cedar Point does.

A park the size of Worlds of Fun in Kansas City could work well or Kings Island by itself which supports Cincinnati, Dayton and Columbus and is a populated area equivelant to Phoenix. But again, and as you said, would need something much more than just some coasters.

Wasn't there a plan for some kind of Hard Rock Amusement Park here at one point or another?

Not sure about Hard Rock but I'm aware of some Dinosaur Park concept being floated again recently. I think we will see some major theme park in Arizona w/in 10-15 years...demos are there finally and the fact that Phoenix/Tucson metros are totally isolated from other metros so there's no "pull" factor that would dilute the impact like you have in California. I agree that somewhere near Prescott would be ideal weather-wise but you have to think the location would likely be CG or Phoenix itself.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

Not sure about Hard Rock but I'm aware of some Dinosaur Park concept being floated again recently. I think we will see some major theme park in Arizona w/in 10-15 years...demos are there finally and the fact that Phoenix/Tucson metros are totally isolated from other metros so there's no "pull" factor that would dilute the impact like you have in California. I agree that somewhere near Prescott would be ideal weather-wise but you have to think the location would likely be CG or Phoenix itself.

I found what it was. It was called Decades. Looks like it was supposed to be Casa Grande too (*Correction* Eloy):

http://www.coastercritic.com/2008/07/decades-theme-park-coming-to-arizona/

[sh9730]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

I found what it was. It was called Decades. Looks like it was supposed to be Casa Grande too (*Correction* Eloy):

http://www.coastercritic.com/2008/07/decades-theme-park-coming-to-arizona/

Yes, there have been a few past attempts - Decades being the most recent until now - but they tried to do this at the depths of the recession - no way risk capital was going to something like this back then.

Today - I am actually pretty comfortable these folks have the capital. The city is offering no up front incentives - but IS doing a sales tax rebate to them AFTER they open and are generating revenues.

But even that is not an incentive per se - Dreamport will be providing approx. 300 million in infrastructure improvements - BEFORE the city will allow them to operate. But that infrastructure will provide city benefits beyond the resort itself, so they will allow a payback of 128 million over 20 years - and again ONLY if they generate revenues to collect on it.

[somethingfast]

Interesting. Wasn't aware of this concept at all...but I was in Houston at the time. Seems like a pretty weak concept really and given the financial crisis no wonder it never happened. Phoenix is much-better positioned today for a theme park than it was before with a much more diversified economy so I think the complexion has changed quite a bit. But any potential theme park needs to be pure entertainment and not some kind of "learning" experience. A Western theme is the obvious trope but that might be so obvious as to be a bad idea. I don't know...something will emerge and gain the traction needed to become a reality. Time will tell.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

Interesting. Wasn't aware of this concept at all...but I was in Houston at the time. Seems like a pretty weak concept really and given the financial crisis no wonder it never happened. Phoenix is much-better positioned today for a theme park than it was before with a much more diversified economy so I think the complexion has changed quite a bit. But any potential theme park needs to be pure entertainment and not some kind of "learning" experience. A Western theme is the obvious trope but that might be so obvious as to be a bad idea. I don't know...something will emerge and gain the traction needed to become a reality. Time will tell.

Actually, something like that (a la Dollywood) could probably work. Dollywood is more kind of "hillbilly'ish, but it is very themed around mining and 1800's and such. It has many attractions that are not your standared variety and yet, still has some good rides and even a couple well received coasters.

[LocoPhoenician]

The heating is just an excuse for not building a theme park. We spent all summer long at Legend City when I was was a kid. It seems people today are soft crybabies and cry about everything.

[xymox]

Originally Posted by LocoPhoenician

The heating is just an excuse for not building a theme park. We spent all summer long at Legend City when I was was a kid. It seems people today are soft crybabies and cry about everything.

Its more than people not being able to deal with it (though - have you tried to ride the coasters at Castles & Coasters in the summer? Its not pleasant.). I think it has more to do with trying to operate them safely at extreme temperatures. I thought I heard Castles & Coasters has days in the summer they can’t/don’t operate the bigger coaster due to the heat.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by xymox

Its more than people not being able to deal with it (though - have you tried to ride the coasters at Castles & Coasters in the summer? Its not pleasant.). I think it has more to do with trying to operate them safely at extreme temperatures. I thought I heard Castles & Coasters has days in the summer they can’t/don’t operate the bigger coaster due to the heat.

“It’s hot” argument about anything is nonsense

Cold places have harsher weather for longer that’s more dangerous yet nobody discusses that it’s too cold for things

[xymox]

Originally Posted by Obadno

“It’s hot” argument about anything is nonsense

Cold places have harsher weather for longer that’s more dangerous yet nobody discusses that it’s too cold for things

The ‘its hot’ argument has shut down Sky Harbor on two occasions.

A lot of items are simply not engineered for the extreme weather we find in our region - and the ‘its cold’ is what limits the season for these parks (and a lot of other activities) everywhere else.

If amusement parks operated in the winter - they’d have to content with equally dangerous situations for the guests as well as operating conditions for the rides. Just because its sunny and looks nice out doesn’t mean people won’t be passing out from heat exhaustion or rides won’t break down due to expansion or other issues related to the heat.

[somethingfast]

^ Yes, the "it's hot" argument doesn't hold much sway realistically. Have you been to Busch Gardens Tampa in the summer? 100 degrees and 95% humidity. Horrible. All Phoenix needs is a mister network along the walkways and shade structures and a theme park here could be open for 9 months of the year if not year-round.

[sh9730]

Originally Posted by xymox

The ‘its hot’ argument has shut down Sky Harbor on two occasions.

A lot of items are simply not engineered for the extreme weather we find in our region - and the ‘its cold’ is what limits the season for these parks (and a lot of other activities) everywhere else.

If amusement parks operated in the winter - they’d have to content with equally dangerous situations for the guests as well as operating conditions for the rides. Just because its sunny and looks nice out doesn’t mean people won’t be passing out from heat exhaustion or rides won’t break down due to expansion or other issues related to the heat.

Well, again, I have not gotten into all the details of what is planned here on this forum - and am worried the mods may already be finding this topic a bit astray - but - this is not going to be a simple "traditional" theme park - especially in the early phases. There will be some "rides" etc. in the Wild Animal park, but the main attractions of the initial phases will be "extreme" in nature - go karting, wakeboarding, possibly an artificial wave park (these are much more perfected than big surf now), that kind of thing - and of course the 100K sq ft indoor water park.

FUTURE phases do call for some coaster type attractions - but even those may turn out to be more VR type rides etc. They haven't released many details about future phase attractions yet.

But believe me - the heat discussion has been asked to the developers point blank - and while they acknowledge some areas of the resort may have less usage at peak heat times - they do not seem concerned about the overall viability of the project.

[pbenjamin]

For a theme park to be anything more than a local attraction like Castles and Coasters or Legend City it has to pull people in from other places, i.e. vacationers. The prime time to take a trip to visit a theme park is summer when school's out. Why would anyone from outside of Arizona want to come here in the summer when it's 110 when they could just as easily go to California? The reason that theme parks work in cold climates is that their summers are relatively comfortable. The heat is exactly the reason why a theme park will never work here.

[Buckeye Native 001]

We have more natural landmarks, scenic byways and hiking trails than we know what to do with. Why on earth would Arizona need an amusement park on top of what we already have?