O-Train Line 2 [Stage 1 | Bayview to Greenboro] | In Service

[PHrenetic]

yep. Which pretty much rules them out anywhere and everywhere.
Which is probably one big reason they are not finding interest.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

yep. Which pretty much rules them out anywhere and everywhere.
Which is probably one big reason they are not finding interest.

I know there is talk about bringing rail transit to Victoria, BC (between Langford and Esquimalt) using the old E&N line. They would work well there.

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/...angford-victoria-rail-service-1.11324219

[PHrenetic]

interesting. I would have to assume that they would operate under the same in-isolation exemption from TC that they had here on the T-Line.

[OCCheetos]

In theory they could be operated on a Smiths Falls line with a special exemption of regulations. This type of exemption has been given in the States before.

I posted about it in the Rural Commuter Rail thread.

Edit: Here's the link I originally posted. It's a report done for the government of Quebec that concludes that there is precedence for allowing mixed rail service in Canada.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

An excellent reference - missed it from the RCR thread. Thx.

He quoted 3 exemptions:
- the O-Train (now the T-Line),
which we know time separates the in-line mix - day .vs. night during maintenance shutdown, or slow and extremely monitored daytime exceptions.
And there are the protection systems (good or bad, per your PoV) for the diamond crossovers.
- the new Waterloo ION system, the exemption in and of which I am not aware,
but which I would have to think is most probably closely comparable to the T-Line. (Do hit me if I am wrong).
- a Caltrain exemption, which from his brief description seems very much more comprehensive and probably riskier than our more conservative governance tendencies.

Section 6.4.5 , page 46 , Quote:
In 2010, Caltrain, a commuter rail system in California, applied for and received a waiver to run lightweight European trains alongside their own heavy diesel passenger trains without time separation. There is also a short stretch that allows running lightweight European style trains and diesel freight trains to share track without time separation.
UnQuote.

and wow - especially given the still ongoing passive resistance to installing Positive Train Control systems, both in the USA and in Canada.

[acottawa]

The Waterloo line has extremely rare heavy rail use.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

- the new Waterloo ION system, the exemption in and of which I am not aware,
but which I would have to think is most probably closely comparable to the T-Line. (Do hit me if I am wrong).

The main difference is that this has time separation. Freight and LRT will never run at the same time, even just for crossing over.

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Waterloo line has extremely rare heavy rail use.

It receives nearly daily use, but only one short freight train per day. It's more frequent than freight in Ottawa anyway.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

yep. Which pretty much rules them out anywhere and everywhere.
Which is probably one big reason they are not finding interest.

Yes, it's unfortunate that the rules around rolling stock in Canada are contained in section 277 of the BNA Act, and thus nearly impossible to change without a constitutional amendment.

If only they were contained in regulations made subsidiary to an organic statute of Parliament, so they'd be easier to change.

Oh well.

[1overcosc]

If you look into the city's documents for the upcoming Finance committee meeting on Tuesday, there's an update on that list of little things the federal government funded last year and one of the things on the list is a study for grade separating the VIA intersection with the Trillium line; the update says "The reference concept design of the grade separation at the Elwood Diamond is complete and it has been added as base scope to the Stage 2 LRT Trillium Line extension project."

That suggests that grade separating this diamond will indeed be part of Phase 2 work.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If you look into the city's documents for the upcoming Finance committee meeting on Tuesday, there's an update on that list of little things the federal government funded last year and one of the things on the list is a study for grade separating the VIA intersection with the Trillium line; the update says "The reference concept design of the grade separation at the Elwood Diamond is complete and it has been added as base scope to the Stage 2 LRT Trillium Line extension project."

That suggests that grade separating this diamond will indeed be part of Phase 2 work.

The Heron road cycle track project mentioned grade separation as well. It will be interesting to see how they pull this off, both railways are constrained by bridges under and over and the nearby station.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Catenary

The Heron road cycle track project mentioned grade separation as well. It will be interesting to see how they pull this off, both railways are constrained by bridges under and over and the nearby station.

I really would have to believe that the T-Line will be totally regraded - depressed, with the roads mostly, and VIA tracks utterly, remaining as they are.

The Transitway under the T-Line will become a bridge over the T-Line, and any opportunity to widen the rail passage under the Bronson/Parkway road bridge
(reinforced trenching past the foundations) to accommodate double track will be taken as they depress the T-Line.
The station will be regraded with the T-Line, basically re-built, during the shutdown,
and the T-Line will dive under the VIA rails, leaving the VIA grade untouched, like at the Belfast connector, also done during the shutdown.
With this, they can expand the passing track (or call it extend the double tracking) north, right up to the Heron Rd. bridge (too much to hope for?).

The biggest problem will be to handle the Sawmill Creek bed.

Hope ? Hope dashed ? We shall see !

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

I really would have to believe that the T-Line will be totally regraded - depressed, with the roads mostly, and VIA tracks utterly, remaining as they are.

The Transitway under the T-Line will become a bridge over the T-Line, and any opportunity to widen the rail passage under the Bronson/Parkway road bridge
(reinforced trenching past the foundations) to accommodate double track will be taken as they depress the T-Line.
The station will be regraded with the T-Line, basically re-built, during the shutdown,
and the T-Line will dive under the VIA rails, leaving the VIA grade untouched, like at the Belfast connector, also done during the shutdown.
With this, they can expand the passing track (or call it extend the double tracking) north, right up to the Heron Rd. bridge (too much to hope for?).

The biggest problem will be to handle the Sawmill Creek bed.

Hope ? Hope dashed ? We shall see !

I think the space under Bronson is already plenty for double tracking. The problem areas would be the bridges (which I guess would be replaced) and the underpass underneath Heron.

Edit: I put together a map of places along the line where double tracking would be "difficult".

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

for the most part, yep. Just remember, before we get too wild, that the TPAP limited the amount of doubling to be done :
Leitrim to Lester , South Keys stn. , Walkley Rd to VIA diamond , Carleton U (University Dr. to Colonel By Dr.) , 417 to Somerset , and Uplands stn. (Uplands Dr. to Airport Pkwy.) . Anything more is, well, bonus at this time. We all want it, but the usual nickel-and-diming has for at least this one shot, been replaced with loonie-and-toonie-ing. They might yet find some ways. We can hope.

The VIA diamond was an extras study, and it looks like we very well may get it, and it allows possibly extending the doubling to south of the station or through to the south side of Heron Rd. (nb: I doubt they will double the station) . As I mentioned, I think the probable is the T-Line will be sunken down to pass under the VIA track, like Belfast connector. Sawmill Creek is a problem. We may get it because, like the Fallowfield VIA-Woodroffe-Transitway and 5 other level crossings problem, it really is a crash waiting to happen, with frequency growth on both the VIA and Trillium lines. TC, VIA, City, prov, and feds, all wish to avoid it. Thus there may well be a few extra bucks made available for it.

The Rideau River Bridge at Carleton U study has yet to report in - I think they would like to do it, but are trying to scrounge the budget out of other sources like the MUP , cycling , or repair-or-replace infrastructure maintenance. That would be a doubling plus cycle plus ped bridge replacement. Would be very nice to have added in, and could (!) extend possible doubling all the way to the north side of Heron.

Definite blockages include : Heron Rd. , Walkley Rd. , The Dow's Lake tunnel and the trench north until the north side of the 417.
Heron and Walkley will not happen soon.
I do not think the prov is ready to replace the 417 bridges yet, and it would not do much good without the tunnel and cut fixes. This stretch of 417 to Colonel By Dr. will remain single track for a long time.

Your 2 other difficulties are basically simple (!) rail bridge replacements : Hunt Club , and Transitway south of the freight diamond and north of Greenboro . Purely depends on available money.

Overall, as has been noted before, more doubling sooner is better. Need better financing!
We shall (not) see what comes of the contract!

EnJoy?

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

I really would have to believe that the T-Line will be totally regraded - depressed, with the roads mostly, and VIA tracks utterly, remaining as they are.

The Transitway under the T-Line will become a bridge over the T-Line, and any opportunity to widen the rail passage under the Bronson/Parkway road bridge
(reinforced trenching past the foundations) to accommodate double track will be taken as they depress the T-Line.
The station will be regraded with the T-Line, basically re-built, during the shutdown,
and the T-Line will dive under the VIA rails, leaving the VIA grade untouched, like at the Belfast connector, also done during the shutdown.
With this, they can expand the passing track (or call it extend the double tracking) north, right up to the Heron Rd. bridge (too much to hope for?).

The biggest problem will be to handle the Sawmill Creek bed.

Hope ? Hope dashed ? We shall see !

This is pretty much what I'm thinking. Rebuilding the Southeast Transitway, right adjacent to Sawmill creek is going to be the biggest issue. The southeast transitway must remain open through construction, with the train closed anything more than an occasional weekend closure would be unbearable. The Brookfield MUP is also in the mix in that area.

[lrt's friend]

Will the road bridge within Carleton University need to be replaced? It seemed to me that the right of way underneath was not that wide.

[lrt's friend]

Separating the Ellwood Diamond will certainly require rebuilding the Transitway and Sawmill Creek bridges and probably the recently added grade separation of the Sawmill Creek/Brookfield MUP. A very expensive project all things considered.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Will the road bridge within Carleton University need to be replaced? It seemed to me that the right of way underneath was not that wide.

The University Dr. bridge will/should be replaced as part of The Rideau River Bridge/MUP/ped replacement.
Two pathway underpasses will have to be rebuilt/enlarged.
The Campus Dr. bridge (next to the new parkade) is, I think/believe (!?), tight but ok, but I have no basis for that opinion.
The Parkade is ok.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Separating the Ellwood Diamond will certainly require rebuilding the Transitway and Sawmill Creek bridges and probably the recently added grade separation of the Sawmill Creek/Brookfield MUP. A very expensive project all things considered.

All of this. Yep. Plus the increased safety. That is why I believe it will require/obtain virtually its own funding packet from all of TC, VIA, and feds, who have -some- budget for this kinda thing.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Separating the Ellwood Diamond will certainly require rebuilding the Transitway and Sawmill Creek bridges and probably the recently added grade separation of the Sawmill Creek/Brookfield MUP. A very expensive project all things considered.

My guess is that there will be one overpass that crosses over both the VIA line and the Transitway, possibly including a re-alignment of the Transitway to bring it closer to the VIA line which would make the required length of the new overpass shorter.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

My guess is that there will be one overpass that crosses over both the VIA line and the Transitway, possibly including a re-alignment of the Transitway to bring it closer to the VIA line which would make the required length of the new overpass shorter.

Good Day.

IMHO, there is not enough distance for the elevation change from under Bronson to over the diamond. It would be too steep, and you cannot regrade under Bronson up.
Under is easier - there is more length available with including regrading all the way back under Bronson down as well.