PHILADELPHIA | THE LAUREL @ 1911 Walnut | 604 FT | 48 FLOORS

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by City Wide

When they rolled into town 2+ years ago the vibe I got was that they were ready to move and move fast. I believe what they are proposing in terms of a mix use project is right for the site and unless their prices are way out of line, I think success is a given. The only reason I can see for this not being under construction right now is their ability to find the financial backing that's needed.

Per the article, Mr. Downey did pretty plainly state that "they have the money to develop it." Of course, we're not privy to private financial information, but I do get the sense that, because they're trying to make a very good impression, they're not inclined to boldly lie to a major city business publication.

That being said, I don't understand the pessimism with this latest update. Yes, it's not moving as fast as I'm sure most people would like. But there's every reason to believe that the high-end urban condo market in Philly (and especially at the primest of Center City locations) is going to be just as strong during this time next year or in early 2019, as it is now.

And if the delay means producing the most thoughtful design that they can conceive of, then that's something everyone should be on board with.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^ We also have a timeline. If they don't make the dates, then we can start worrying.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

^ We also have a timeline. If they don't make the dates, then we can start worrying.

They say 9 months to a year before ground breaking and then later in the article it says 2019. They bought the lot almost 3 years ago and still seems to be playing with the actual content and design of the building (apartments vs. condos, etc.). It seems the market is tightening to me. I'm not panicking but it sure seems that waiting another year+ is adding risk to this getting done.

[iheartphilly]

I think the developer is obviously trying to maximize the gain$$$ based on the purchase price of the land and the favorable location. In order for them to do this, they want to sell or rent as many units as possible, but I think the bankers and/or investors are incredulous to the price tag of the project. In other words, developer's expectation is not aligned to investors/bankers willingness to finance the amount requested . I think that's why this project been stalling for 3+ years. And, with the projection of another year before construction starts, this means not all the behind the scene deals are done yet since I speculate that there are disagreements at the negotiating table. I give it less than 50% chance of it happening, but hope that it does.

[39.95n]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

I think the developer is obviously trying to maximize the gain$$$ based on the purchase price of the land and the favorable location. In order for them to do this, they want to sell or rent as many units as possible, but I think the bankers and/or investors are incredulous to the price tag of the project. In other words, developer's expectation is not aligned to investors/bankers willingness to finance the amount requested . I think that's why this project been stalling for 3+ years. And, with the projection of another year before construction starts, this means not all the behind the scene deals are done yet since I speculate that there are disagreements at the negotiating table. I give it less than 50% chance of it happening, but hope that it does.

Not sure I understand the negativity. These guys tick almost all of the boxes people on this forum complain about all the time. National developer? Check. Developed a high rise in Philly before? Check. Seem to give more than half a thought to architecture and design? Check.

I get it, it's disappointing that they have not broken ground yet, but I don't think that means they are destined for failure. This is a difficult, difficult site, and one wrong decision could cost an awful lot of money. They have already progressed further than anyone else ever has. They have a credible, approved plan for development and have taken real physical steps to implement it (even if everyone did not love their demolition activity).

I have no more idea than anyone else what the real situation is, but these guys are serious players, not "oops I paid too much, now I'm bankrupt, maybe I can flip" clowns like some other land holders in this city. They are into this site for a lot of money, and the only way they are getting it back is to build.

If we are having this conversation in a year, then we can all panic, until then I'm inclined to sit back and hope for a sales office in the spring.

Oh, and someone asked about 3601 Market. It had some lease up issues, but Southern started marketing it for sale in the early summer. No word on whether there is a buyer, but the speculation was that the price would be pretty eye popping...

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Redddog

I like it. It's better to get it right. I'm not too worried about market shifts over the course of 18 months. The people who will inhabit this place aren't as exposed to near-term market conditions as the rest of us suckers.

I hope for some great restaurants (like the article mentioned). Love grabbing drinks and bites along the eastern edge in one of those outdoor places and more of that would be great.

That's what people said in 2006. We're due for another recession, and that did and does have an impact on the wealthy and killed condo projects. . This isn't a building for Russian oligarchs but those of us who still live in this stratosphere (especially the rental piece). Still, I'm hopeful it moves forward as planned. Great project! I'm on the list for info as I want to buy here.

[jsbrook]

One thing I wonder about this building are the views. It's big, so you are not going to get those 360' views you get at some luxury buildings with less units per floor. But I wonder if the floors will at least have condos with some city views and some Rittenhouse views in the same condo. Hope so.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

Per the article, Mr. Downey did pretty plainly state that "they have the money to develop it." Of course, we're not privy to private financial information, but I do get the sense that, because they're trying to make a very good impression, they're not inclined to boldly lie to a major city business publication.

That being said, I don't understand the pessimism with this latest update. Yes, it's not moving as fast as I'm sure most people would like. But there's every reason to believe that the high-end urban condo market in Philly (and especially at the primest of Center City locations) is going to be just as strong during this time next year or in early 2019, as it is now.

And if the delay means producing the most thoughtful design that they can conceive of, then that's something everyone should be on board with.

Well, as they say, the devil is in the details, and in this case the detail is what does he mean when he says they have money to develop the project. I certainly don't claim to understand what goes into paying for a $300MM project, but I'm pretty sure if they had the money, the dirt would be flying and concrete would be being poured.
It's probably a balancing act; such as maybe they can presently only raise $200MM in total for construction, so they try to see what they can build for that amount, and maybe that amount just doesn't build them something that gives them enough return on their investment, so they
keep looking. And at the same time what are their carrying costs to own this property and presently they are getting no income from their $30M investment, so as more time ticks away they have more real money spent and more money on the books spent and nothing to show for it.

This group seems like straight shooters, but as developers I think by law they speak a slightly different form of English, one where the sky is always sunny and blue, and they always have the best architects for the best site for the best project and on and on, etc. At least that's the language the public hears. If they are having trouble making the numbers work, why can't they just be honest about that? They, all developers, must think the public is as dumb as the people we elect, and maybe we are!

For kicks I went back a year (page 61) and that's just after Southern released the news that the project was being somewhat down sized. And since then the issues regarding the 3 Sansom St. properties has been fully resolved, but not much else seems to have happened. What was said in this article isn't what I would consider an "update", it's just a reporter reaching out in an attempt to find out what's going on. If there's any update its that now we know not to expect anything for another year, and in developer speak I think that actually means one year if each and every detail works out in the best possible way.

What do people think is going to be different in a year (other then the wild card of Amazon)? I realize what I think matters nothing to Southern, but right now demand seems to be strong and money is still cheap, and the sky is blue. How's it going to different and better in a year? That might be a pessimistic outlook, but I would be glad to be wrong. It's not like I'm out there carrying a placard in front 1911 claiming the end is near.

I'm disappointed, but not too surprised. There are several what appear to be very solid projects backed by real live developers that seem to be having problems getting traction. Too many projects trying to drink from the same well? Who knows. I'm just glad PMS isn't doing this project.

[summersm343]

1911 Walnut tower expects 2019 groundbreaking

One of the last-remaining developable lots in Rittenhouse Square will remain vacant for at least another year, with the news that 1911 Walnut isn’t expected to break ground until 2019.

Developer Southern Land Company told The Philadelphia Business Journal as much, also revealing that the proposed 48- to 49-story tower will include 200 rentals and 60 to 75 condo units.

It’s the latest update for the long-awaited $300 million development—the developer’s priciest project yet—that has been years in the making and gone through a number of design iterations that have postponed construction. It has also sought approval from the Philadelphia Historical Commission to demolish the Oliver H. Bair Funeral Home building on the site.

Along with the rentals and condos, which will each have their own entrances, here’s what else is in store, according to the report:

-High-end finishes in both the rentals and condos
-Extended-stay rentals
-Indoor and outdoor pools
-Swanky fitness center
-Restaurants on Sansom and Walnut

A sales center will open up next spring ahead of the groundbreaking. Already, Southern Land Company says it has received hundreds of calls from folks expressing interest in living at the unbuilt tower.

https://philly.curbed.com/2017/12/14/16777790/1911-walnut-philadelphia-groundbreaking

[jsbrook]

Condos will start on the 28th floor. Most floors will have 4 units. The higher floors will have 2 units, there will be 2 full floor penthouses of 4,200 square feet, and the top floor penthouse will be a duplex of over 8,000 square feet. Very lux. Pricing is supposed to be higher than anything we've seen in the city outside of 1706 Rittenhouse and 500 Walnut, starting around $2 million and $1,150 per square foot. One Riverside averaged $1,050 per square foot (but then again, it's not right off the square and had no apartment component; the first condo here will be at a higher altitude than One Riverside's penthouse). A model unit may be ready for display to prospective buyers by the end of the summer. Ground breaking may possibly happen at the end of the year before 2019.

Many units will have balconies/terraces, ranging from 60 square feet to 130 square feet. I'm sure the penthouse terraces will be larger, but I don't have specs.

[PHL10]

^^ Great info – thanks. Nice to see some details nailed down.

[Mr Saturn64]

Have the dates for groundbreaking/construction changed at all?

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64

Have the dates for groundbreaking/construction changed at all?

I am told it might break ground by the end of the year. Targeting a 2021 completion.

[McBane]

Fascinating stuff BUT the big question - has the height changed at all? Still 565 feet? (for reference, Commerce Square is 565 feet)

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by McBane

Fascinating stuff BUT the big question - has the height changed at all? Still 565 feet? (for reference, Commerce Square is 565 feet)

Didn’t say. But they are still lauding that it will be the city’s tallest residential-only building. And condos start on floor 28 with 4 floors of penthouses, so hopefully.

I’m not worried about filling he condos, actually. I think he demand is there. I worry about the demand for such high end rentals, but Curtis Center, the Versailles, and the Alison Building will be instructive. I don’t think this is mostly a Millenial demographic for these rentals. I think it’s mostly older people of means who could buy, and have mostly owned in the past, but don’t want to now. I think there will be a healthy mix of well-off younger people, some who never owned, but not the primary rental demographic here.

[McBane]

I agree. They say this is the last piece of develop-able land on the square (and technically, it's not ON the square); but either way, they better make the most of this opportunity.

Is there any concern or thought given to whatever Scannapieco is planning in Society Hill? Both developers are looking to set a new bar for luxury. The locations are super-premium but polar opposites with Scannapeico going for the quiet, private oasis-in-the-city vibe while 1911 is leveraging the energy, luxury, and prestige of Rittenhouse Square. A real battle royale, eh?

I know I'd prefer to live on the Square, but obviously, there's a lot of wealthy people in Society Hill and Logan Square who value a certain amount of quiet and privacy. I think whoever gets their project off the ground first will have a distinct advantage. Is there room for both towers?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by McBane

I agree. They say this is the last piece of develop-able land on the square (and technically, it's not ON the square); but either way, they better make the most of this opportunity.

Is there any concern or thought given to whatever Scannapieco is planning in Society Hill? Both developers are looking to set a new bar for luxury. The locations are super-premium but polar opposites with Scannapeico going for the quiet, private oasis-in-the-city vibe while 1911 is leveraging the energy, luxury, and prestige of Rittenhouse Square. A real battle royale, eh?

I know I'd prefer to live on the Square, but obviously, there's a lot of wealthy people in Society Hill and Logan Square who value a certain amount of quiet and privacy. I think whoever gets their project off the ground first will have a distinct advantage. Is there room for both towers?

Based on your analysis above, it sounds like they are going for two very different targets (aside from the whole being rich part). My guess would be Scannapeico is trying to drag Mainliners and other welloff suburbanites back, while this is targeting well off ubanites either already in the city or possibly from New York and hopefully Seattle too.

[jsbrook]

There is room. They are different buildings. There are only two full-floor units and one bi-level penthouse at 1911 Walnut. Most units in Scannapieco 3.0 will be full floor and over 4,000 square feet. Also, there are certain people that don’t want retail in their tower residence and don’t want to share with rental apartments (though the apartments will have a different entrance). I think 1911 Walnut will be comparable to One Riverside in a location many would prefer to 25th and Locust. Very luxe, but Scannapieco’s tower is a level above and all units will be larger than everything but the 1911 Walnut Penthouses. It’s a market of its own, and I think there’s enough to fill a third tower of comparable size to 500 Walnit.

Originally Posted by McBane

I agree. They say this is the last piece of develop-able land on the square (and technically, it's not ON the square); but either way, they better make the most of this opportunity.

Is there any concern or thought given to whatever Scannapieco is planning in Society Hill? Both developers are looking to set a new bar for luxury. The locations are super-premium but polar opposites with Scannapeico going for the quiet, private oasis-in-the-city vibe while 1911 is leveraging the energy, luxury, and prestige of Rittenhouse Square. A real battle royale, eh?

I know I'd prefer to live on the Square, but obviously, there's a lot of wealthy people in Society Hill and Logan Square who value a certain amount of quiet and privacy. I think whoever gets their project off the ground first will have a distinct advantage. Is there room for both towers?

[jsbrook]

The edges of Society Hill are getting less quiet every day, though. There are apartments and townhomes filling in on and off Walnut, and restaurants and retail are coming in and being targeted around Washington Square and down to the 400 and even 390 blocks of Walnut. Probably to the consternation of many existing residents, but so it goes. It’s not Rittenhouse, but I thing we’ll see that area grow and become more busy and lively.

[Human Scale]

((I signed up for their list as soon as the website went live, seems like years ago))


Hello,

This email is in response to your registration on a VIP list for 1911 Walnut (1911walnut.com), the newest condominium on Rittenhouse Square.

My name is Eva Walker and I’m the Sales Manager for this new building. Today, I’m reaching out to introduce myself and to ask if you are still interested in obtaining information about this exciting new project.

Please let me know if you wish to be further contacted by me and if so, please provide the best number and time for me to call you.

Thank you,

Eva Walker | Sales Manager
Southern Land Company
1900 Market St – 8th Floor
Philadelphia PA 19103
| P | 215.977-9777
| E | [email protected]