CANZUK International - "merger" of UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by khabibulin

And yet in 2016 (with its relatively low Canadian dollar) there were almost 20 million visits by Canadians to the US, comprising of almost 200 million overnight stays. And this number is down from the recent dollar parity years like 2013 which saw 23.4 million visits and 238 million overnight stays.

Yet you make a blanket statement that many Canadians despise the US?

Not every Canadian who goes to the US wants greater political integration with the US. The snowbirds flocking to Florida and Arizona are happy to bitch about the US before, during, and after their brief stay in the US. Canada, due in part to its anemic population, obviously lacks many of the things the US has and Canadians therefore visit the US a lot. But this doesn't mean they are necessarily joyed by that fact.

One of my biggest nuisances about being on a work visa in the US is that any time I come back to Canada people will strike conversations with me to complain about how horrible the US is. Seemingly endless rants. I try to raise Canadian topics (good and bad) but of course most people I know in Toronto don't even follow Canadian news. If it's not on CNN then it's not news, basically. As an example, the same young urban leftists who were frothing at the mouth about the TPP during the US Presidential elections aren't even aware of the Canadian government recently entering into it.

I get it. I'm not even a citizen here. I don't think the US is a great country. But goodness, I do appreciate that Americans tend not to zero in on one country and bitch about it all the time.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Multiculturalism is one of the shared values of the anglosphere, arguably. London is one of the most diverse cities on earth.

Yes but no.

Let's not confuse government policy with what people actually want.

I don't want to get into identity too much but a Briton's sense of what it means to be British is very different from how Canadians view themselves. It's an old country after all...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would have no objection to Canada joining the EU, but an EU without the UK is less appealing than an EU with the UK.

I think it would actually be pretty bad for Canada to join the EU, whether or not the UK is in it.

In terms of migration we'd at best get to move to and work in countries with a roughly comparable standard of living. In exchange, there could be unlimited migration from countries like Bulgaria and Romania to Canada with no points-based entry system. Border restrictions with the US could get more strict because opening up borders with Canada would mean opening them up to a whole other continent as well. Presumably the EU would also impose restrictions on who we let in from non-EU countries.

Canada joining the Eurozone would probably be a huge mistake too. We would lose control over monetary policy and there is no reason to expect Canada to run at the same speed as, say, Germany. Canada already has problems with diverging economies in different regions (e.g. maybe NL should have a low interest rate now, while there is pressure to raise rates in ON or BC).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thurmas

This might be the dumbest post I have seen on this forum yet. What next vanwintorfax a merger of Vancouver Winnipeg Toronto and Halifax?

The idea isn't really new and certainly didn't originate on SSP Canada. The organization to promote it was created three or four years ago. So before Trump and before the Brexit talk.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by ChillN

Having lived in Australia, the UK, and Canada,and having spent some time in NZ (and having to deal with all the visa bs) I used to be really supportive of this idea. Now I'm a bit more hesitant:

-This would be a wonderful opportunity to work and travel around but I wonder if Canada could experience a brain drain in the process. Just think, it's cold right now and you could be on a beach in Sydney right now instead!

-Some British people still see Canada and Australia as former colonies and have a bit of entitled attitude towards us. Some of strongest supporters of this are actually quite conservative and think of CANZUK as a race. Its quite old fashioned.

-How does Canada bridge its idea of multiculturalism, with the idea they have in the UK or Australia, which I believe are less welcoming?

-The agreement amongst English speaking countries could ignite separatist sentiment in Quebec.

Ultimately, I would be fine if this started out between Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I think that the UK would be a lot trickier and potentially cause more problems.

I don't think many Quebecers would be against an agreement with Australia and New Zealand if it ever happened. Maybe with the UK but not because English is the main language there but because of politics. Quebec would continue to be a jurisdiction with French as the official language.

A union between the four countries would be difficult because of distance and costs just to make it happen.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The idea isn't really new and certainly didn't originate on SSP Canada. The organization to promote it was created three or four years ago. So before Trump and before the Brexit talk.

I don't know much about how this idea got started, but without looking it up, I have a feeling Canadians started it or at least were more eager about it that the other nations, based on what we previously discussed a few posts earlier on how Canada often wants to play up its Commonwealth ties to distinguish itself from the US.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I don't know much about how this idea got started, but without looking it up, I have a feeling Canadians started it or at least were more eager about it that the other nations, based on what we previously discussed a few posts earlier on how Canada often wants to play up its Commonwealth ties to distinguish itself from the US.

OK, I looked it up. I was wrong. A Brit started it.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I don't know much about how this idea got started, but without looking it up, I have a feeling Canadians started it or at least were more eager about it that the other nations, based on what we previously discussed a few posts earlier on how Canada often wants to play up its Commonwealth ties to distinguish itself from the US.

In all of the CANZUK countries, the use of CANZUK as an alternative to the existing arrangements is part of the attractiveness of CANZUK.

Canadians want CANZUK to distance ourselves from the US.

Brits want CANZUK to distance themselves from the Continent.

Australia wants CANZUK to distance themselves from China.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In all of the CANZUK countries, the use of CANZUK as an alternative to the existing arrangements is part of the attractiveness of CANZUK.

Canadians want CANZUK to distance ourselves from the US.

Brits want CANZUK to distance themselves from the Continent.

Australia wants CANZUK to distance themselves from China.

Distance themselves economically, political or culturally?

I get the impression that some of these influences may be more of one than the other for the countries involved. For example, Australia is obviously economically more tied to China, than culturally/politically, while Canada and the US is tied in all these ways.

[cornholio]

US would have to be part of the equation with Canada for me.

I am however scared of all this multiculturalism talk. Its something I want Canada to get away from by any means possible as I see it as a cancer to a society. Melting pot is what should be promoted but a union like this may reduce democracy (like in EU) and allow special interest groups to push multiculturalism even harder. Thats one thing I am afraid of.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by cornholio

US would have to be part of the equation with Canada for me.

I am however scared of all this multiculturalism talk. Its something I want Canada to get away from by any means possible as I see it as a cancer to a society. Melting pot is what should be promoted but a union like this may reduce democracy (like in EU) and allow special interest groups to push multiculturalism even harder. Thats one thing I am afraid of.

Sounds like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what multiculturalism is. Despite the rhetoric surrounding it, multiculturalism is the melting pot.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Do Canadians really want a union specifically that excludes the US, in favor of forging stronger ties with the other countries though, or it is another one of those token "let's define ourselves in contrast to the US" kind of thing, with not much of a leg to stand on.

As discussed in many conversations in this forum's various threads, and even in general real life conversations, Canadians often try as hard as possible to distance the country's identity from the US, but at the end of the day still follow US media much more than any other country, and don't really "walk the walk" by paying attention to and picking up non-US ideas, culture, media, trends etc.

We still act as if US issues are Canadian issues, as if the US world is our domestic world. It seems we like the "idea" of being more worldly, more British, more European etc. than the US more than actually going out of our way to be that way. Only Quebec or French Canada has actually gone out of its way to catch up with European/France's/overseas cultural influence. Other Canadians seem to only pay attention to the world if they have immigration ties/family ties to certain places.

I don't mind Canada looking towards more non-US countries, but I hope it's more genuine interest in reconnecting to the rest of the world and not just symbolic.

There is this notion that multiculturalism (and the fact that its own culture is so loosely defined) allows Canada to sample the best the world has to offer culturally, but this does not appear to really pan out in everyday life where any void or clean slate quickly gets filled by mainstream American stuff. There is some evidence however that we are moving to a "best of the world" scenario in terms of food at least, so that would be a notable exception to what I am observing. It's noteworthy though that this is also occurring in parts of the U.S. that have diverse demographic profiles like the main cities in Canada do.

I should also mention for the sake of clarity that Quebec obviously doesn't represent a "best of the world" cultural diet either. It's just that the pie is split up quite differently here compared to the rest of the country.

The "best of the world" cultural approach doesn't really exist anywhere on the planet, if we're being truly honest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Sounds like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what multiculturalism is. Despite the rhetoric surrounding it, multiculturalism is the melting pot.

That's not entirely true, and would merit further discussion.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In all of the CANZUK countries, the use of CANZUK as an alternative to the existing arrangements is part of the attractiveness of CANZUK.

Canadians want CANZUK to distance ourselves from the US.

Brits want CANZUK to distance themselves from the Continent.

Australia wants CANZUK to distance themselves from China.

Very perceptive.

CANZUK therefore is partially a defensive measure, but at the same time does define a sphere of cultural and historical commonality.

I agree that although a free trade area would be integral to CANZUK, that in many ways our four countries are not natural trading partners. CANZUK would reframe our Commonwealth heritage, and would reestablish free movements of people as existed 100 or so years ago (when we all had British citizenship).

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by khabibulin

And yet in 2016 (with its relatively low Canadian dollar) there were almost 20 million visits by Canadians to the US, comprising of almost 200 million overnight stays. And this number is down from the recent dollar parity years like 2013 which saw 23.4 million visits and 238 million overnight stays.

Yet you make a blanket statement that many Canadians despise the US?

Because many Canadians are dumb and/or hypocritical. They’ll bitch about Trump then head to the USA to “save” $10 in gas. Or they’ll moan about how long they had to wait at the hospital and then happily give sales tax to border states so they get some cheap cheese.

[kool maudit]

The EU is great in terms of going to live in Vienna or Stockholm or whatever, but it's not so great in terms of (people like) Peter Sutherland or Jean-Claude Juncker making serious decisions about your country's future without any measure of popular input.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's not entirely true, and would merit further discussion.

Sure it is. The services funded under multiculturalism are basically all aimed at integrating immigrants seamlessly into society. ESL, employment programs, education about Canadian culture and the cultures of other immigrants.... it's all about making newcomers an integral part of larger society as a whole.

It's not a new or experimental strategy anymore; it's been official policy for 47 years. And seems to be working. I can't think of another country that does a better job of integrating immigrants (and maybe more importantly, children of immigrants) than Canada. If people like Cornholio consider that a cancer I shudder to think what their proposed cure might be.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Sure it is. The services funded under multiculturalism are basically all aimed at integrating immigrants seamlessly into society. ESL, employment programs, education about Canadian culture and the cultures of other immigrants.... it's all about making newcomers an integral part of larger society as a whole.

It's not a new or experimental strategy anymore; it's been official policy for 47 years. And seems to be working. I can't think of another country that does a better job of integrating immigrants (and maybe more importantly, children of immigrants) than Canada. If people like Cornholio consider that a cancer I shudder to think what their proposed cure might be.

I don't disagree with most of this but the ethos behind Canadian multiculturalism is fairly different from the Great American Melting Pot (of Schoolhouse Rock fame, among others). Or at least it was supposed to be.

The idea was that Canada is a mosaic made up of many cultures that retain their characteristics while at the same time coming together as a whole. The melting pot basically erases or suppresses the individual characteristics of its components in order to produce a single homogenous end product.

On the ground of course, the two approaches have tended to overlap and in many ways Canada has still become a melting pot regardless of official policy, whereas in other ways the U.S. also has some of the characteristics of a Canadian-style mosaic.

At this point in history, the end result for most immigrant communities in both countries can be said to be fairly similar, although there now seems to be a push for what I might call Multiculturalism 2.0, which involves an deeper level of diversity with more opportunities and openness for exceptions to be made to and opting out of certain societal prescriptions under the guise of cultural or religious tolerance.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I don't think many Quebecers would be against an agreement with Australia and New Zealand if it ever happened. Maybe with the UK but not because English is the main language there but because of politics. Quebec would continue to be a jurisdiction with French as the official language.

A union between the four countries would be difficult because of distance and costs just to make it happen.

At first sight for me, Australia would be acceptable but to be fully comfortable with a free trade and free movement deal across the Atlantic it would ideally have to be with both the UK and France.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't disagree with most of this but the ethos behind Canadian multiculturalism is fairly different from the Great American Melting Pot (of Schoolhouse Rock fame, among others). Or at least it was supposed to be.

The idea was that Canada is a mosaic made up of many cultures that retain their characteristics while at the same time coming together as a whole. The melting pot basically erases or suppresses the individual characteristics of its components in order to produce a single homogenous end product.

On the ground of course, the two approaches have tended to overlap and in many ways Canada has still become a melting pot regardless of official policy, whereas in other ways the U.S. also has some of the characteristics of a Canadian-style mosaic.

At this point in history, the end result for most immigrant communities in both countries can be said to be fairly similar, although there now seems to be a push for what I might call Multiculturalism 2.0, which involves an deeper level of diversity with more opportunities and openness for exceptions to be made to and opting out of certain societal prescriptions under the guise of cultural or religious tolerance.

That's why I said "despite the rhetoric". The mosaic vs melting pot thing is mostly a myth. By making immigrants feel welcome and giving them the support that they need (ie. the services that are part of the multiculturalism program, not pressuring people to abandon their cultures), they and their children tend to integrate more fully into society. If you try to coerce immigrants into conforming to some sort of cultural standard, it's just going to backfire. The proof is in the pudding. Research has shown that immigrant communities in Canada tend to integrate better than those in the United States and nearly every country in the world. What other countries integrate immigrants better than Canada? Which other system is better than ours?