Will Canada really orient towards non-US countries more in the near future?

[Acajack]

There may some isolated examples that someone determined might dig up, but I don't really see similar cultural mixing taking place that much in the rest of the country.

(The American dance remixes of Gordon Lightfoot's "If You Could Read My Mind". don't really count...)

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure that the Chinese kid is the best example, given that they aren't one of the bigger communities in Quebec, and their integration with the francophone majority is fairly recent and only in its early stages.

How about this, though?

Pierre Kwenders, from the Congo, redoes a version of an Iroquois chant that was originally popularized by Madeleine Chartrand in the 60s. With the help of rapper Jacobus (Jacques-Alphonse Doucet) from Baie-Ste-Marie in SW Nova Scotia.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7856744&postcount=230

The same song was also done Indian-style several years prior by Montreal DJ Ramasutra (Ramachandra Borcar) for the Québécois film Camping Sauvage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMSGd8bxRMY

All fine, but I'm still waiting for Capsicum to describe to me how the Chinese Canadian experience is virtually identical to the Chinese American experience.

Even if it is (I can state from first-hand experience in both countries that it is not), I don't see how that makes the Chinese Canadian experience somehow a culturally inferior one to that of an immigrant group to Quebec.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

All fine, but I'm still waiting for Capsicum to describe to me how the Chinese Canadian experience is virtually identical to the Chinese American experience.

Even if it is (I can state from first-hand experience in both countries that it is not), I don't see how that makes the Chinese Canadian experience somehow a culturally inferior one to that of an immigrant group to Quebec.

Well, I didn't say they were identical, but that ethnic groups in Anglo-Canada often take their cues from US culture/media or assimilate and become incorporated into a US identity rather than continuing to stay either with their old country's identity or develop a more distinctive Canadian one. For example, African American homegrown media is much more strong than homegrown Black Canadian media, so the latter often take more cues from the former (though things are changing a bit now with people like Drake/the Weeknd etc.). In general, it seems like stories about the ethnic/immigrant experience are dominated by US media. Stories that are even Canadian in origin about minority/immigrant groups get framed or incorporated into US culture (eg. my Big Fat Greek wedding originally based on Greek-Canadians in Winnipeg, was later adapted to a Chicago setting). Sometimes it seems like you can swap Canadian cities for American ones in stories about the "immigrant experience" and not that much will change.

In terms of North America, there's still a lot that's shared between Chinese Americans and Canadians (eg. a history of early labor immigration, then exclusion on the west coast of both countries, then dominated by post 1960s immigrants). Things like North American style Chinese food is shared between the two countries. Also ideas and stereotypes seem to be shared across both sides of the border (eg. the model minority image for Asian Americans has also influence in Canada).

[Capsicum]

I actually would like it if there was a stronger homegrown Canadian identity, both in Anglo-Canada and Quebec. And if it included immigrant/minority groups alongside the majority.

I just pointed out Asian-Canadians as an example, because it's a large demographic but seemed there wasn't much of a homegrown identity, (Asian Canadians are 15% of the population of Canada). Unlike African Americans, which are similar 13-14% of the population but have a large homegrown identity, I was just mentioning the statement that it feels like Canadian minorities don't have as much of a homegrown identity separate from the US (or generic North American version of) one, once their old country's culture is assimilated away.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Even if it is (I can state from first-hand experience in both countries that it is not)

In what ways have you found Chinese American and Canadians to be very different?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

In terms of North America, there's still a lot that's shared between Chinese Americans and Canadians (eg. a history of early labor immigration, then exclusion on the west coast of both countries, then dominated by post 1960s immigrants). Things like North American style Chinese food is shared between the two countries. Also ideas and stereotypes seem to be shared across both sides of the border (eg. the model minority image for Asian Americans has also influence in Canada).

None of those things resonate with first generation Chinese Canadians in 2017, because those are a collection of historical events and stereotypes, not the actual day-to-day life experience of ethnic Chinese people growing up in those two respective countries.

There are cultural commonalities to growing up Chinese in the US and Canada - but those are due to the fact that you're Chinese, not because US-Chinese kids are doing it. Things like getting red envelopes, or having your parents insist that you become a doctor, or putting your dishes in the dishwasher rack to dry...those are all Chinese-isms, not American Chinese-isms.

Then there are radical departures in the lived experience of Chinese Canadians and Chinese Americans owing to the fact that they live in separate countries. In my experience, Chinese Americans of my generation tend to be quite brash and outspoken compared to even other Americans, while Chinese Canadians tend to be even more soft-spoken and quiet than even typical Canadians, thus amplifying (literally: the decibel level of my American cousins when they talk is noticeably higher) the divide between typical Americans and Canadians even more than usual. Owing to the sheer proportion of Chinese Americans who are Californians (so if you're not from California, you almost certainly have cousins from there), a lot of the Chinese American experience has a bit of a SoCal vibe to it that is completely absent in Markham or Richmond.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Owing to the sheer proportion of Chinese Americans who are Californians (so if you're not from California, you almost certainly have cousins from there), a lot of the Chinese American experience has a bit of a SoCal vibe to it that is completely absent in Markham or Richmond.

Don't more Chinese Americans live in NorCal (eg. San Francisco area)?

So Asian American identity is more regionally influenced than Canada (eg. California is to Asian Americans what New York city's metro area or the northeast is to Jewish Americans, Italian Americans etc., or what the pre-Great Migration South's influence to African Americans was like)?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I actually would like it if there was a stronger homegrown Canadian identity, both in Anglo-Canada and Quebec. And if it included immigrant/minority groups alongside the majority.

Canadian identity is not defined by capital "C" culture (culture as a product to be intentionally consumed by outsiders), but by lower case "c" culture (the customs, habits and daily rituals that define everyday life). Those things are pretty universal across the country, and very distinguishable from everyday life in the US (which is drastically different).

It would be sexier if we had very defined cultural exports, but other countries have succeeded in exporting their daily customs as cultural product too (e.g. Denmark's Hygge phenomenon)

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Don't more Chinese Americans live in NorCal (eg. San Francisco area)?

Yeah, to-mate-to, to-mah-to.

So Asian American identity is more regionally influenced than Canada (eg. California is to Asian Americans what New York city's metro area or the northeast is to Jewish Americans, Italian Americans etc., or what the pre-Great Migration South's influence to African Americans was like)?

Yes. When I think 'Chinese American' I automatically associate it with California for some reason, despite the fact that the American side of my family hailed from New Jersey and Chicago.

When I think of any Canadian immigrant group, I don't think of regions, unless you mean regions of a metropolitan area.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

There are cultural commonalities to growing up Chinese in the US and Canada - but those are due to the fact that you're Chinese, not because US-Chinese kids are doing it. Things like getting red envelopes, or having your parents insist that you become a doctor, or putting your dishes in the dishwasher rack to dry...those are all Chinese-isms, not American Chinese-isms.

Well, then again, something like parents wanting kids to go into a profession like doctors, lawyers or other lucrative job etc. aren't a Chinese-ism either.

Historically lots of immigrant/minority groups (the stereotype in past generations was used for other groups, like Jewish immigrants, and today with other first-generation immigrant groups like Indian-Americans) wanted this for the kids for reasons of social mobility and desire for economic assimilation to have "made it" in America.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

When I think of any Canadian immigrant group, I don't think of regions, unless you mean regions of a metropolitan area.

There's still some regionality as pointed out in the thread on geographically most concentrated ethnic groups.

For example, Algerians and Haitians with Quebec (Montreal), West Indians like Jamaicans and Sri Lankans with Ontario (specifically the GTA). The thing is some groups are shared between big cities (eg. Chinese and Indian-Canadians in Vancouver and Toronto) so there's not that much regionality for some of the larger groups as it just reflects population centers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Canadian identity is not defined by capital "C" culture (culture as a product to be intentionally consumed by outsiders), but by lower case "c" culture (the customs, habits and daily rituals that define everyday life). Those things are pretty universal across the country, and very distinguishable from everyday life in the US (which is drastically different).

It would be sexier if we had very defined cultural exports, but other countries have succeeded in exporting their daily customs as cultural product too (e.g. Denmark's Hygge phenomenon)

I am actually fond of saying on here that (Anglo-)Canada *does* differ from the U.S. in terms of ethos, mindset, feel, etc. (you get the idea), but part of me does have to admit there is a kind of biblical "blessed are those who believe without seeing" aspect to it.

A lot of the "Canadian difference" as usually defined is based on what are actually fundamental human traits like niceness, politeness, humility, compassion that aren't necessarily the exclusive domain of any particular nationality. Sure, they may be more or less present in certain human groupings, but ascribing them to diverse demographics of millions of people is always extremely tricky.

It's certainly way more abstract than saying People X tend to eat a certain food that they invented, gave this form of dance to the world, have this type of dress, follow these traditions, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

All fine, but I'm still waiting for Capsicum to describe to me how the Chinese Canadian experience is virtually identical to the Chinese American experience.

Even if it is (I can state from first-hand experience in both countries that it is not), I don't see how that makes the Chinese Canadian experience somehow a culturally inferior one to that of an immigrant group to Quebec.

I don't think we're fundamentally dealing with a superior vs. inferior issue here. All he said was that it was a different, interesting approach to things.

In a climate where the near-unanimous view in (Anglo-)Canada is that it has found *the answer* that it thinks everyone else in the world is looking for in terms of diversity, I think that's a legitimate observation to make.

That there are other ways of doing things out there.

And while there may indeed be some obscure stuff out there that someone may dig up and share with us, I think it's pretty telling that no one on here has ever given examples from multicultural anglophone Canada that would be similar to Marco Calliari and Pierre Kwenders or even, I dunno... Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There may some isolated examples that someone determined might dig up, but I don't really see similar cultural mixing taking place that much in the rest of the country.

(The American dance remixes of Gordon Lightfoot's "If You Could Read My Mind". don't really count...)

Nelly Furtado covering her own tunes comes to mind.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

freakingnews

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Nelly Furtado covering her own tunes comes to mind.

Is that really a serious example?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is that really a serious example?

Is it not?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Is it not?

If so then I think I need further clarification.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am actually fond of saying on here that (Anglo-)Canada *does* differ from the U.S. in terms of ethos, mindset, feel, etc. (you get the idea), but part of me does have to admit there is a kind of biblical "blessed are those who believe without seeing" aspect to it.

A lot of the "Canadian difference" as usually defined is based on what are actually fundamental human traits like niceness, politeness, humility, compassion that aren't necessarily the exclusive domain of any particular nationality. Sure, they may be more or less present in certain human groupings, but ascribing them to diverse demographics of millions of people is always extremely tricky.

I think that English Canada differs from the US in some very profound and measurable ways. In terms of everyday impact, a laundry list would include: religiosity and church attendance, willingness to use public transit, general trust in government, attitude toward gun control, violent crime rates, etc.

I'll also throw in a couple of traits that I think the US does better, although a lot of it is not as easy to keep statistics on: Americans are more driven, intelligent Americans are more inquisitive and less likely to accept things at face value; Americans have a stronger sense of tribal pride (60% of the time this is a good thing); Americans are more philanthropic.

When you think about this, this is remarkable.

English Canada is physically and linguistically tethered to the most powerful culture on the globe and also tethered no one else (except Quebec); we are tied at the hip to a culture so big and powerful that people halfway across the world who don't speak English fear losing some of their indigenous culture to creeping Americanism.

Why don't we have the same gun ownership rates? Unlike them, a large part of our raison d'etre was to hunt for furs in the vast wilderness. Why do we have double, often triple, the public transit ridership rates that they have? Our cities are just as hopelessly built around the car as theirs are. Why do we have the church attendance of a Western European country? We should have been a magnet for immigrants of religious persecution as much as they were during the 19th century. The list goes on. These traits are so pervasive that they are common across all of Canada, irrespective of region, city size and social class. When it comes to church attendance or gun ownership rates or public transit ridership, southwestern Ontario has more in common with Quebec or Belgium than it does with Michigan.

Now I suppose the rebuttal would be that the US is the exception and not Canada, and that we are in line with Western Europe when it comes to a lot of these social metrics. And my response would be that it doesn't matter, because Western Europe is 6,000 km away, not 60, and that most of the fundamental differences that Canada has are postwar developments when Western Europe - even Britain - was out of the picture for many of us.

[Metro-One]

I personally feel that things will gradually drift apart and that American / Canadian similarity has already peaked, doing so in the 80s and early 90s.