Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Are the largest reasons for folks to keep them because they are not immediately at the end of their life, are an essential transportation piece of infrastructure, or the price tag?

I'd say it's because they serve a reasonably useful function, aren't terribly ugly and alternative provided is both expensive and looks terrible.

Is an 8 lane arterial, a dead ended Dunsmuir, and multiple huge congested intersections really more desirable than a viaduct which could very easily be prettied up?

There were all sorts of cool ideas for better integrating the viaducts into their surrounds in the 2011 Re:Connect competition. The city just picked the least innovative option, which incidentally was proposed by Larry Beasley, the previous head city planner.

I'm all for making the area better. I've lived a short walk away from there for the last 8 years. A strong road is just a crappy answer to a problem that nobody was previously asking for.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Are the largest reasons for folks to keep them because they are not immediately at the end of their life, are an essential transportation piece of infrastructure, or the price tag?

For me, the reason to keep them is because they're working fine and it's fiscally prudent to amortize their construction costs over as long a period as possible by making good use of them until they wear out.

I don't consider them to be essential in any way. They exist because at the time they were built they had to span a rail yard - but that yard is long since gone. If we were building roads in the area today it would be pointless to build an elevated structure for most of that distance - the only portion that is really required is the ascent to the top of the escarpment that runs east of and parallel to Beatty street.

[Vin]

And also the viaduct surroundings have the potential to look like this:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.6440427,-...ax8WFOZylbrtAPwXCpDdA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.640059,-7...Xl9LiwueZShWpMkKCK7_A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Feathered Friend]

http://council.vancouver.ca/20180131/documents/cfsc4.pdf


http://council.vancouver.ca/20180131/documents/cfsc4.pdf


http://council.vancouver.ca/20180131/documents/cfsc4.pdf

This report represents another bold step forward by recommending that Council approve a comprehensive plan for Northeast False Creek (NEFC) that responds to Council’s previous direction, and that will guide the twenty year build-out of the neighbourhood without the viaducts, including opportunities for:
• Approximately $1.7 billion contribution towards public amenities and critical
infrastructure;
• 10,000 – 12,000 new residents in an area extremely well-served by sustainable transportation choices;
• 6,000 - 8,000 new jobs; Northeast False Creek Plan (“NEFC Plan”) and Viaducts Replacement Project – RTS No. 12093 3
• 1,800 new social housing units (for approximately 3,250 residents),
• Partnerships with senior levels of government and non-profit organizations to improve housing affordability and access to jobs;
• Reconciliation and cultural redress;
• An improved and more resilient transportation network not only for the area but also as a post-disaster route between Downtown and the new St Paul’s Hospital; and
• Approximately 32 acres of new and renewed parks and open spaces, including more than one kilometre of new waterfront seawall designed for recreation and also resilience against sea level rise for a vulnerable portion of the Downtown

Project funding since October 2015 has been secured, resulting in the Northeast False Creek project office setup including staffing and consultancies over the past two years. Prior to the $21 million approved by Council in October 2015, other project funding for studies and planning of approximately $3 million was approved by Council bringing the total to about $24 million. These costs are included in the $360 million overall cost estimates for the viaducts removal and street network reconfiguration project. In addition to the materials in this report, staff and consultants have completed a tremendous amount of design work (currentlyat 90% complete) described in this report for the new streets and infrastructure required toimplement the Viaducts Replacement Project.

2. IMPLICATIONS OF NOT REPLACING THE VIADUCTS
The Northeast False Creek Plan assumes the removal and replacement of the viaducts with a new complete street network that better supports the future neighbourhood. The Georgia and Dunsmuir viaducts are seismically vulnerable and need to be replaced at some time in the future. At a minimum, an extensive and costly upgrade (approximately $90 million) would be required under the City’s seismic capital program and full replacement of the structures would be necessary in approximately 50 years.

Other possible implications of not replacing the viaducts are as follows:
• Funding for the rehabilitation of the viaducts may need to be secured, wholly or partly, through taxpayer funding as part of a Capital Plan, rather than through development contributions;
• The new Creekside Park extension and new public open spaces would likely be delayed, and the larger Creekside Park would no longer be possible;
• Delayed replacement of the Expo Deck in the existing Creekside Park, north of Science World;
• Missed opportunity for a potential $1.7B in public amenities and infrastructure contributions resulting from the comprehensive NEFC Plan, although a public amenities package of a smaller amount could be delivered;
• The opportunity to connect Chinatown and Strathcona back to the waterfront, and reconnect Mount Pleasant to Chinatown by repairing the urban fabric of Main Street would be lost; and
• Council’s direction to honour the history of Hogan’s Alley, achieve a cultural centre, achieve a target of 300 units of social housing, daycare and meaningful public space would not be possible on the Main Street Blocks as the viaduct off-ramps would remain in place.
• Missed opportunity to secure the maximum amount of social and affordable housing in NEFC as well in as the adjacent North False Creek area.

Today, emergency vehicles generally avoid using the Georgia and Dunsmuir viaducts as they lack flexibility to re-route in case of an emergency. However, the remainder of the existing at-grade street network within NEFC is utilised by the Vancouver Police Department, Fire and Rescue Services, BC Emergency Health Services, Transport Canada and others. As such, accommodating the movement of emergency vehicles through NEFC is crucial given its
location across a large portion of the downtown neck and the close proximity of the future St Paul’s Hospital site immediately east of NEFC

2018-2019
• 18 months of detailed design, planning, negotiations and legal agreements completed for the new street network, private development sites, parks and open spaces, and work on the reconciliation and cultural redress aspects of the NEFC Plan.
2019-20211
• Phased replacement of the Georgia and Dunsmuir viaducts with the new streets and critical infrastructure
• Temporary mitigation measures at the southern edge of Andy Livingstone Park to accommodate the new Pacific Boulevard until the renewal of the park
2021-2035
• Development of remaining development sites and parks and open spaces

The City anticipates that the Northeast False Creek PBS will be largely funded though development-related revenues, sale or lease of City owned lands in Northeast False Creek, senior government contributions, and other strategic partnerships.

Phase 5 – Dunsmuir/Arterials Temporary Changes, Georgia Viaduct Demolition, Prior St Preparation Works (Quebec to Gore)

Following completion of all new street works west of Quebec Street, focus for
construction can now turn to start the demolition of the Georgia Viaduct to make way for the new Georgia Ramp. Temporary changes to the Dunsmuir Viaduct (eg. signal phasing at Beatty, directionality of traffic) and/or adjacent east-west arterial streets (eg. rush regulations for existing on-street parking stalls) will be required to ensure sufficient capacity is available for people to enter/exit downtown while the Georgia Viaduct is being demolished and Georgia Ramp is being constructed... Concurrent with these works, the
preparation works for the resilient road link on new Prior Street (between Quebec and Gore) will also be undertaken

There's plenty of more goodies in the report, which goes to council on the January 31st. I've taken the time to highlight some of the elements that have generated the most discussion here. Assuming this starts as soon as this is approved, I assume we could see major construction before 2019.

[mezzanine]

thanks for the info, feathered friend.

I would think the opportunity cost of building NEFC and not having a cleaner slate would be a big factor. If we did incorporate the viaducts into a future NEFC development, we'd punted the decision for a major replacement ~ 50 yrs down the road, when things will be more expensive, especially if there are public works and private development around the viaducts. and it's already been almost 10 yrs since the Olympics - 50 yrs (max) is not a long time for infrastructure like an elevated road.

I suspect a firm decision is needed soon, as I suspect a lot of planning has already occurred wrt the viaducts and the new st pauls site, the malkin connector and the false creek flats, let alone NEFC. there are pros and cons to keeping/removing the viaducts, but I don't see removing the viaducts now as regrettable.

[s211]

I would argue that Vision does not have the mandate to commence work on the viaducts, and that the project should be put into abeyance until the next election, and then let the elected officials decide. Vision's delusional if it thinks it still holds a valid mandate to govern on ANY matter at this point.

[red-paladin]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/northeast-false-creek-plans-1.4502432
Vancouver reveals final plans for Northeast False Creek


http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-city-council-viaducts-demolition-decision-january-31-2018
City Council to decide on $360-million Vancouver viaducts demolition on January 31

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/northeast-false-creek-plans-1.4502432
Vancouver reveals final plans for Northeast False Creek

Thank you for this information.
In it, predictably, The Viaducts are coming, there'll be new park space, and similar things to what we'be been hearing for some time.
*However, it mentions "The plans include affordable housing, new parks and facilities and "new transportation routes connecting Chinatown to the downtown core."
What transportation routes are these? Busses? Road lanes? Bike lanes? Just what?
Thank you

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you for this information.
In it, predictably, The Viaducts are coming, there'll be new park space, and similar things to what we'be been hearing for some time.
*However, it mentions "The plans include affordable housing, new parks and facilities and "new transportation routes connecting Chinatown to the downtown core."
What transportation routes are these? Busses? Road lanes? Bike lanes? Just what?
Thank you

Why not go look at the plans? They're linked a couple of posts above.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you for this information.
In it, predictably, The Viaducts are coming, there'll be new park space, and similar things to what we'be been hearing for some time.
*However, it mentions "The plans include affordable housing, new parks and facilities and "new transportation routes connecting Chinatown to the downtown core."
What transportation routes are these? Busses? Road lanes? Bike lanes? Just what?
Thank you

Here, I think that's what the link is. But it still doesn't give any details. No new bus routes, street cars, etc. mentioned.

http://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/streetscape-design.aspx

http://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/streetscape-design.aspx

[Vin]

Remember Vision once lied to us that this thing would only cost us $100mil? I LOL at those who bought it. I said it would be at least 300mil and was swiftly shot down. Now we all know it's going to be $400mil ++ or more. This is worse than the fast ferry fiasco of the NDP government, and the result is that we get more traffic congestions and air pollution.

[GenWhy?]

Does it not cost solely about $100 million to tear them down... and everything else is extra and paid mostly by DLC's? Not property taxes...

[s211]

Gotta love the theatre of Vision Vancouver tearing down the viaducts then hitting the trail, kind of like how Saddam's troops set fire to all those oil fields before throwing in the towel. This has turned into Vision's most spiteful legacy.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you for this information.
In it, predictably, The Viaducts are coming, there'll be new park space, and similar things to what we'be been hearing for some time.
*However, it mentions "The plans include affordable housing, new parks and facilities and "new transportation routes connecting Chinatown to the downtown core."
What transportation routes are these? Busses? Road lanes? Bike lanes? Just what?
Thank you

Nice catch by you.

Its a city of Vancouver hallmark to leave things purposefully vague in order to get certain agendas through without much push back. Reminds of the old questions they used to put on the ballot that would say vague things like "Do you support the City of Vancouver spending $145,500,000 for transportation, sewage, roads, recreation opportunnities etc" without breaking down what specifically they were talking about. Then once people agree to that vague question, out comes the ridiculous and expensive pet projects (wheat fields, urban farming, uniquely shaped, redesigned roads that cost 3X as much as a regular road etc etc

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you for this information.
In it, predictably, The Viaducts are coming, there'll be new park space, and similar things to what we'be been hearing for some time.
*However, it mentions "The plans include affordable housing, new parks and facilities and "new transportation routes connecting Chinatown to the downtown core."
What transportation routes are these? Busses? Road lanes? Bike lanes? Just what?
Thank you

They didn't say better routes, just new. The new worst intersection in the city will be Pacific and Georgia, and I'll have to get through it twice per day. Yay!

If you want to compare what it will be like to something that currently exists, imagine Willingdon and Lougheed, but with shit tons of pedestrians blocking all left/right turners too.

Greenest City 2020 creating traffic jams and a pedestrian death zone for no reason.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Does it not cost solely about $100 million to tear them down... and everything else is extra and paid mostly by DLC's? Not property taxes...

You make it sound like developers have access to money that grow on trees. Is there already a guarantee from developers that they will "donate" $300mil towards here? What about the rest of the 1.7bil or so? You do the math, if the City were to extort that much money from the private sector, how much would one unit of condo or shop cost there? Bear in mind that many of the buildings near Chinatown are relatively low in density and are subsidised housing. Would developers be able to hand over 1bil to CoV for this lousy pet project? Without that guarantee, CoV will ultimately dip their hands into the City coffer pot. Think about it.

Without the viaducts gone but instead seismically upgraded with another 50 years of life to spare costing a mere $90mil, developers are still able to build around the same footprint near the Stadium area. They can contribute the access funds to other better investments. Take out $200mil and we can already have a streetcar system in place.

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Nice catch by you.

Its a city of Vancouver hallmark to leave things purposefully vague in order to get certain agendas through without much push back. Reminds of the old questions they used to put on the ballot that would say vague things like "Do you support the City of Vancouver spending $145,500,000 for transportation, sewage, roads, recreation opportunnities etc" without breaking down what specifically they were talking about. Then once people agree to that vague question, out comes the ridiculous and expensive pet projects (wheat fields, urban farming, uniquely shaped, redesigned roads that cost 3X as much as a regular road etc etc

Their intent was only to remove the viaducts and leave a legacy. Everything else was never thoroughly thought through or just served as afterthoughts, and so they had to lie twist their way throughout the process to gain public support, like saying how the current guideways are not seismically safe, emergency vehicles prefer not to use the routes, etc. Now the truth is out, with new cans of worms opened when we get closer to decision day, and they are gradually abandoning ship like rats before this thing blows up in their faces. Trumpish strategy in that I gotta say.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

"The plans include affordable housing

• Video Link

How can someone say such things and not smell of so much s%$*?
That area has some of the more lucrative undeveloped real estate in the entire city. Concord Pacific hasn't been squatting on that area for 25 years because it's not financially viable.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by s211

I would argue that Vision does not have the mandate to commence work on the viaducts, and that the project should be put into abeyance until the next election, and then let the elected officials decide. Vision's delusional if it thinks it still holds a valid mandate to govern on ANY matter at this point.

It seems to me that Vision expects they're going to lose the fall election, so every thing they do until then will be a "scorched earth" policy, making difficult or impossible for the next mayor & council to reverse course or cancel projects.

They need to realise they are lame ducks ever since placing 5th in the last by-election and especially since Robertson announced he's not running for mayor again.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

It seems to me that Vision expects they're going to lose the fall election, so every thing they do until then will be a "scorched earth" policy, making difficult or impossible for the next mayor & council to reverse course or cancel projects.

They need to realise they are lame ducks ever since placing 5th in the last by-election and especially since Robertson announced he's not running for mayor again.

^ I would think that a future city council of any stripe would not want to deal with this in the future and are secretly grateful that vision would take the immediate hit.

A few years ago when there was no detailed plan, the uncertainty fed a lot of negative views on the whole idea. oddly enough even on this forum many people who may have some misgivings on viaduct removal seem to like the proposed plans for NEFC. you may disagree with the consultation process, but the false creek resident's association and hogan alley advocates seem to be on board. even the strathcona resident's association seems to be onboard, but conditionally - asking for even more traffic calming along prior st.

approval at the vote is likely fait accompli, but if it wasn't approved, i'd like to know what the alternate plan is for the whole area. if a consensus is that the viaducts are less important nowadays but shameful to remove before their service life i'd like to know how the city would move now and in a few decades away.

If anything, it would be interesting to see how affleck, carr and bremner votes on this.

of course, how this will play on voters are an entirely different matter, but IMO there seems that there are more concerns about excess density and affordability (not unique to the viaduct area) rather than transportation impacts from viaduct removal itself.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

...oddly enough even on this forum many people who may have some misgivings on viaduct removal seem to like the proposed plans for NEFC. you may disagree with the consultation process, but the false creek resident's association and hogan alley advocates seem to be on board. even the strathcona resident's association seems to be onboard, but conditionally - asking for even more traffic calming along prior st...

I can't help but wonder if the strongest opposition to the removal of the viaducts comes from suburbanites who hate the idea of spending an extra couple of minutes on a long and harrowing commute...