Amazon HQ2: Vancouver as a candidate?

[logan5]

oh my god. Major eye roll. Seems like every city over a million people put a package together. Even some under a million.

[northendMK]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

I disagree with much of this. The taxes aren't very different in Toronto vs California, if anything they're lower up there. The lower salaries and benefits costs offset whatever increase (if any) there might be in commercial leasing costs.

Indeed, tech companies are majorly expanding up in Canada, partly to capture the benefit of Canada's local talent and partly because of the immigration situation. It's much easier for Google or Microsoft to move people from India to Canada than it is to move them from India to here. This goes for new hires who aren't chosen in the H1B lottery and people who are refused I-140s or H1B on other grounds (credentials, skills).

And it will apply in earnest to workers who run out of H1B time once the I-140 H1B extension is ended (which could happen before the next H1B intake/lottery in 2019). The per country limits on employment-based green cards mean that Indians wait 15+ years on H1B extensions past the 6 year limit before green card. Trump's gang plans to kill these extensions, meaning hundreds of thousands of Indians would have to leave after the 6 years of H1B is up. Employers will move people to Canada to wait on a green card before they'll move them to Dublin, Hyderabad or London.

No matter how many people may be moving to Seattle, people in Vancouver and Toronto can and should expect continued expansion by US companies over the coming years. Tech industry growth and H1B oversubscription is driving this, and so are Trump's policies.

You're right, I think I worded my post poorly. A lot of local publications here in Seattle and in Vancouver (forget which one had an article about it) have taken the H1B situation and tried to argue that somehow this will result in a mass-exodus of jobs from Seattle/Bay area to Canada. I don't think that's going to happen at all. Is the H1-B system totally strained to capacity? You are absolutely right.
Also, just out of curiosity, what, if any, kind of tax breaks and other benefits does California give the tech industry?

[a very long weekend]

Well, there will definitely be job loss the Bay Area and Seattle in favor of Canada, it's already happening. Every job created up there is one that's not created down here. What I and most observers are saying is that it's going to get worse.

H1B and PERM/I-140 denials are up 10-15% year over year. This giant increase in scrutiny increases costs and time, and it's the new reality of the Trump DHS/USCIS. The H4 work provision will be repealed this year, meaning that spouses of H1B holders can't work, and H1B households of all sizes will be single income. These actions make it harder to predictably recruit to the US centers, and make relocating out of country more attractive.

And killing H1B extension for I-140 approved Indians will cost us hundreds of thousands of workers, and up to a million people when the families are included. And obviously there just aren't enough people from America or other immigrant countries to do those jobs, so they'll go to the company's Canada/Dublin/Hyderabad outposts with the former H1B-holder.

And in this context, you have the Canadians providing cheaper workers, an easy immigration path, and American time zones. You can google the tax incentives, they vary by province but they're very friendly to tech companies.

The people you're listening to on the radio are exactly right - this Administration is directly targeting California and Seattle (and NYC/the research triangle/etc) with this immigration stuff and there's no question that our economies will suffer and that the Canadians will benefit as long as they don't shoot themselves in the foot by letting housing costs continue to skyrocket due to underbuilding.

[GeeCee]

The only real way this made any kind of sense for Vancouver was an immigration hub like Microsoft has here - kind of a temporary holding zone until they got you to the US. Vancouver's other issues such as housing affordability and proximity to Seattle (LA was the only city on the west coast that made the short list, no mention of SF or the valley at all) kind of made it obvious that we weren't getting it especially considering that they announced that they were doubling their local workforce back in November: http://vancouversun.com/business/loc...ver-operations

[Phil McAvity]

Am I the only one that is surprised to see a company pull a move i've only ever seen athletic organizations pull?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

Am I the only one that is surprised to see a company pull a move i've only ever seen athletic organizations pull?

Somehow, I don't see Amazon choosing Brazil or Qatar.

[SpongeG]

Does Canada allow these big tech companies to bring in cheap tech workers from overseas?

Didn't Trump change the minimum wage for those kind of workers to over $130,000 thus making it less appealing for US companies to do so and hire USA'ers?

[djmk]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Does Canada allow these big tech companies to bring in cheap tech workers from overseas?

I'm working on a file right now of a really tiny western Europe company with eastern Europe shareholders setting up shop in Vancouver and getting a temporary foreign worker pretty easily.

[whatnext]

It’s funny, I recall a certain poster trying to rip me a new one after I suggested Vancouver’s tech thrived because it’s “waiting room” status for overseas workers yet that’s exactly what I’m hearing from most posters here.

Anyway great to see Columbus and Pittsburgh on the list. Both former industrial cities that would benefit mightily from Amazon (though Pittsburgh was already in a renaissance).

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I'm one of the few people I think to have seem some of the details of the Vancouver bid and they did have a location capable of meeting all of Amazon's demands. The office space not existing currently was not a concern of Amazon's, as they will likely purpose build their buildings, and adding 5 million square feet for the Vancouver construction industry is no big deal at all, we just usually do it in residential format.

Well the entire area around 1133 Melville is entirely underbuilt and capable of housing multiple 160M+ towers. Hence why reliance has bought up a few of the sites lately.

Not to mention the difference between the 140M towers we build in Vancouver and a 160M tower you seem to think Amazon needs is minuscule and no one at Amazon could care less.

The two buildings they currently take space in, Telus gardens and 401 W georiga are both short buildings so they clearly don't have the same height obsession you do.


Other downtown malls? you've got me beat and I live here.

1133 Melville area is fine as it is. Are you seriously suggesting all those towers to be demolished so that new ones can be put in? Shouldn't we be expanding downtown Vancouver's footprint instead? If I were a developer, I would rather build fast from an empty parking lot or 2-storey old warehouse site than having to first go through all the hoops of demolishing a 15-20 storey tower and then having to rebuild. If Vancouver allows OV area to have a new financial district, or even West Broadway and allowing buildings to go up to 160+m, do you think Reliance would even bother buying up Melville area?

Yeah, Amazon is now occupying a number of floors each on two separate short buildings. I'm pretty sure they want everyone to be in one tall building if they can help it. Why locate in separate sites, and what's the benefits of that? If they locate their headquarters here, that would be 20 times more people they need to house I bet. Do you think 2 short buildings would cut it?



I'm surprised you don't know other malls downtown besides Eaton Centre. Are you sure you're from Toronto?
Let me enlighten you.

Established Toronto downtown malls:
1. PATH malls
2. Toronto Dominion Centre mall
3. BOM mall
4. The Atrium on Bay
5. 10 Dundas East
6. Hudson's Bay on Bloor
7. 110 BLoor

Up and coming downtown malls:
8. Maple Leaf Square
9. One Bloor (on Bloor, under construction)
10. The One (on Bloor, under construction)
11. Shops at Aura

And there are many other smaller ones. This list is excluding other huge malls in Toronto's town centres such as Midtown(St Clair, Eglinton) , Scarborough, Yorkdale, Vaughn Mills, etc.

That's why Toronto is on the list. It thinks big, not only on retail business, but also many other areas, unlike us.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Would be nice but we didn't/don't have companies that need office space, unfortunately. Real estate is our economy.

There was 1.8 million square feet of office absorption this year alone....

Just to put that into perspective that's enough demand to fill four Bentall IVs! In one year!

Originally Posted by Vin

I'm surprised you don't know other malls downtown besides Eaton Centre. Are you sure you're from Toronto?
Let me enlighten you.

Established Toronto downtown malls:
1. PATH malls
2. Toronto Dominion Centre mall
3. BOM mall
4. The Atrium on Bay
5. 10 Dundas East
6. Hudson's Bay on Bloor
7. 110 BLoor

Up and coming downtown malls:
8. Maple Leaf Square
9. One Bloor (on Bloor, under construction)
10. The One (on Bloor, under construction)
11. Shops at Aura

And there are many other smaller ones. This list is excluding other huge malls in Toronto's town centres such as Midtown(St Clair, Eglinton) , Scarborough, Yorkdale, Vaughn Mills, etc.

That's why Toronto is on the list. It thinks big, not only on retail business, but also many other areas, unlike us.

Lol, not one of those are malls.

The best example is the Bay in Yorkville and that anchors... wait for it... an outdoor shopping strip!

You really just don't get it do you? The Maple Leaf square 'Mall'?

It has a longos, liquor store, TD bank and maple Leafs / Raptors jersey store.

You'd have to be a pretty small town guy to think that's a mall. I guess Vancouver has a mall at Nelson and Seymour since there's a Nesters and a autoplan broker there...

By your bizarre logic Downtown Vancouver has about a dozen 'malls' too...

Thanks for the 'enlightenment' though. if you ever take a trip outside of Vancouver, try coming to Toronto and I'll tour you around. With your mom's permission of course.

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Does Canada allow these big tech companies to bring in cheap tech workers from overseas?

Didn't Trump change the minimum wage for those kind of workers to over $130,000 thus making it less appealing for US companies to do so and hire USA'ers?

You're talking about prevailing wage designation, but that's only effective if the people can get in. Canada's points system is doing what it should: an Indian PhD that Google can't get into the US will be slotted in up in Canada somewhere, and it'll save Google money and give this guy a good life, while he does good work, and pays taxes in Canada and raises Canadian kids. In the US, the current administration is basically making it harder to import that sort of person, but the companies won't stop hiring them, it's just a question of what office in what country they'll work at.

If you want a good example most Canadians understand intuitively, think about the rules that mandate single family homes in the center of the city. 75%+ of Vancouver is required by law to be low rise detached housing. This makes housing scarce and drives up the cost, making you extra vulnerable to speculators, since there's so little stock. Analogically, in the US, we're bidding up the cost of labor by restricting the number of people who can come work here. If we let more in, even just as temp workers, wages would decrease. Wages are artificially high in the US because of the immigration regime, just like how housing costs are high in Vancouver because of the artificial land shortage imposed by ultra restrictive zoning.

So, you shouldn't think of low wages in Canada, you should think of wages that are more market-based, with fewer market constraints. Just like how in, say, Tokyo, where neighbors and local representatives have no say in land use decisions, property values are market based and, consequently, very affordable.

I'm not saying we should have open immigration, I'm saying that our wages are a consequence of our immigration policy.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by s211

I'd support renaming it "the fact that Vancouver thought it had a chance just underscores how self-absorbed it is", although I'll admit that's a bit long-winded.

Brilliant

When the shortlist came out, I was in Calgary where a hot topic in the news was "why that city wasn't shortlisted", "what they could do to attract these types of business next time," could they really consider themselves a tech friendly city etc..etc...

Meanwhile in Vancouver, it barely got a mention in the local media and the top headlines seem to be what street will we be attacking next to rid it of vehicular lanes and how we are going to tax motorists yet another way.

Just goes to show where the different mentalities and priorities of the 2 cities are I suppose

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Brilliant

When the shortlist came out, I was in Calgary where a hot topic in the news was "why that city wasn't shortlisted", "what they could do to attract these types of business next time," could they really consider themselves a tech friendly city etc..etc...

Meanwhile in Vancouver, it barely got a mention in the local media and the top headlines seem to be what street will we be attacking next to rid it of vehicular lanes and how we are going to tax motorists yet another way.

Just goes to show where the different mentalities and priorities of the 2 cities are I suppose

Or maybe it shows that Vancouver is less obsessed with cheesy corporate games, is confident in its own rapid growth (which includes the continual expansion of Amazon's presence), knows things like "too close to Seattle" are out of its control and generally didn't have the initial hubris to actually think they had a real good shot at it?

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Or maybe it shows that Vancouver is less obsessed with cheesy corporate games, is confident in its own rapid growth (which includes the continual expansion of Amazon's presence), knows things like "too close to Seattle" are out of its control and generally didn't have the initial hubris to actually think they had a real good shot at it?

I know right? Who needs all that cheesy money and well paying jobs. We can run the economy plenty good on real estate and unicorn farts.

And make no mistake about it, Amazon could have been based in Zimbabwe and we still wouldn't make the short list.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

There was 1.8 million square feet of office absorption this year alone....

Just to put that into perspective that's enough demand to fill four Bentall IVs! In one year!



Lol, not one of those are malls.

The best example is the Bay in Yorkville and that anchors... wait for it... an outdoor shopping strip!

You really just don't get it do you? The Maple Leaf square 'Mall'?

It has a longos, liquor store, TD bank and maple Leafs / Raptors jersey store.

You'd have to be a pretty small town guy to think that's a mall. I guess Vancouver has a mall at Nelson and Seymour since there's a Nesters and a autoplan broker there...

By your bizarre logic Downtown Vancouver has about a dozen 'malls' too...

Thanks for the 'enlightenment' though. if you ever take a trip outside of Vancouver, try coming to Toronto and I'll tour you around. With your mom's permission of course.

Oh, so malls must be huge like Eaton Centre to be considered one? All of those I listed are malls in podiums: some bigger and some smaller. I bet you can't name a single Vancouver development similar to those I listed in Toronto. Ever considered why it's possible there but not here?

The Nesters at Nelson and Seymour isn't a mall because we can't access the businesses from inside the building, and I feel that you are exaggerating again. Many of the malls I stated in Toronto have more than 15-20 shops/restaurants/food and beverage etc. within the building. And yes, that makes them a mall.

Maple Leaf mall:
http://urbantoronto.ca/sites/default...-3252-9550.jpg
https://www.todaylivinggroup.com/wp-...9715657979.jpg

Hudson Bay on Bloor - Not a mall???
https://www.shopping-canada.com/mall...bay-centre.jpg


And none of these are malls, are you sure??!!

Established Toronto downtown malls:
1. PATH malls
2. Toronto Dominion Centre mall
3. BOM mall
4. The Atrium on Bay
5. 10 Dundas East
6. Hudson's Bay on Bloor
7. 110 BLoor

Up and coming downtown malls:
8. Maple Leaf Square
9. One Bloor (on Bloor, under construction)
10. The One (on Bloor, under construction)
11. Shops at Aura

If they are not malls, what are they? Shopping centres? Shops inside a retail podium? Huh?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

I know right? Who needs all that cheesy money and well paying jobs. We can run the economy plenty good on real estate and unicorn farts.

And make no mistake about it, Amazon could have been based in Zimbabwe and we still wouldn't make the short list.

Not saying I was against getting it. Just saying that not reacting to losing it as if it was a tragedy shows a confidence and maturity to me in that we're not begging for a silver bullet investment.

You may be right because of the real estate issue. But it's not like that isn't discussed plenty already. What else is there to say? "We lose out on investment because of high real estate prices." This comes up all the time. Going on about it in the news one more time isn't gonna change anything.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Not saying I was against getting it. Just saying that not reacting to losing it as if it was a tragedy shows a confidence and maturity to me in that we're not begging for a silver bullet investment.

You may be right because of the real estate issue. But it's not like that isn't discussed plenty already. What else is there to say? "We lose out on investment because of high real estate prices." This comes up all the time. Going on about it in the news one more time isn't gonna change anything.

When you don't get something in business- its crucial that you examine why. In fact, even if you are successful in obtaining a particular property, it is always healthy to reflect on why you were successful, and how you plan on building upon that success.

Business knows no maturity. Its black and white.
The people in Calgary seem to be genuinely upset they weren't shortlisted and are asking themselves some questions to ensure they win out next time around. Such practices may lead to other businesses relocating there. Such an approach would do wonders here. For us, it may be more about keeping business here

For some reason, we don't seem to do that here. As stated, we can be "mature" about things while we watch other cities gobble up these opportunities, or we can get our collective heads in the game to pursue these opportunities to our maximum abilities. Otherwise why bother? Why not just let other cities worry about such things why we pat ourselves on the back for being too mature to take part.

[cornholio]

Canadas immigration system has done the complete opposite of what some people here are claiming. I am technically a tech worker and worked for a hr outsourcing company. What is happening is this. Wages are being driven into the ground, quite literally. What this does is drive talented labor out. This talent mostly goes to the US and some to the EU (like my self and one of my siblings and several colleagues). This creates a feed back loop, low talent = low quality wok = third tier projects = lower wages = more exodus of talent = lower quality of work = lower quality projects = lower wages = more talent leaving.

THIS is exactly what is happening in Canada. I saw it with my own two eyes.

As for the comment about "eastern european" labour coming in...Its all low talent workers working for cheap who would be low talent workers working for cheap in eastern Europe. I still work in the same industry but now in EMEA and for talented workers the wages in eastern Europe are equal to what they are in Canada with significantly lower costs of living. In Prague my sibling earns well over 100k Canadian as a specialized developer. I earn more in Prague today then I did in Vancouver 12 months ago and earn comparably though not as a dev but something closer to a pm type role. If you are good you will get the money. If you are shit you go to a low wage high cost of living area like Vancouver.

Canada is screwing its self and more importantly screwing Canadians. It is the US benefiting with high quality projects staying there, wages growing there, and talent being driven there. The move the US did was briliant and has ensured that it continues to hold the vast majority of tech companies and their core operations on its soil.

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

There was 1.8 million square feet of office absorption this year alone....

Just to put that into perspective that's enough demand to fill four Bentall IVs! In one year!



Lol, not one of those are malls.

The best example is the Bay in Yorkville and that anchors... wait for it... an outdoor shopping strip!

You really just don't get it do you? The Maple Leaf square 'Mall'?

It has a longos, liquor store, TD bank and maple Leafs / Raptors jersey store.

You'd have to be a pretty small town guy to think that's a mall. I guess Vancouver has a mall at Nelson and Seymour since there's a Nesters and a autoplan broker there...

By your bizarre logic Downtown Vancouver has about a dozen 'malls' too...

Thanks for the 'enlightenment' though. if you ever take a trip outside of Vancouver, try coming to Toronto and I'll tour you around. With your mom's permission of course.

I agree with your take on what a mall is or isn't. His comparisons are predominantly service-based retail commercial units aimed at local residents or day-time works in buildings above, as opposed to a 'shopping-mall'.

However, I disagree with how you've chosen to express yourself. I don't believe the back-handed insults to other members are required. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and responses to disagree can be easily done without throwing personal insult to the mix. As a mainstay and moderator of this forum, it should be encouraged to set the example with a more positive tone.