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  #321  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 View Post
Atlanta and these four other cities are most likely to get Amazon’s new headquarters: Tech analyst

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/gbh-insi...rs-are-likely-to-get-amazons-new-hq.html
Why are they going to take this entire year to make a decision...???
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  #322  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 6:28 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Why are they going to take this entire year to make a decision...???
Corporate relocations typically take several years. Which is why I believe Amazon already had a short list long before the RFP was released.
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  #323  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 6:30 PM
Khantilever Khantilever is offline
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You make some interesting points, but I would argue that the productivity gains a company is able to achieve in Boston vs. Atlanta pale in comparison to the economic gains if Atlanta is selected. Concerning the CoL, look at it from the view of a prospective employee. Food, transportation, housing, school, state taxes...etc are all significantly higher in Boston. This will impact Amazon's ability to attract talent and retain talent and they know it.

Putting all of the previously discussed issues aside, Amazon recently signed a 500K lease for a ground up office in Boston's Seaport district and has an option for an additional 500K. Amazon said this was not tied to their HQ2 announcement. Also, Boston's Seaport does not have the space available to be an option for Amazon's HQ2.

Question - does it make sense for Amazon to sign a 500K lease in Seaport if they are going to choose Boston for their HQ2? It does not seem logical to me at all. It goes back to a point I make earlier in this sub-forum, Boston will be a significant regional HQ for developing Amazon's Artificial Intelligence applications/technologies, but it will not be their HQ2.
Sure, I do agree that ATL has a better shot than Boston, but not due to COL. Not to beat a dead horse here, but I just object to using COL as a measure for comparing cities' attractiveness. Boston is indeed more expensive than ATL, but to the extent that the differential reflects differences in productivity then Amazon shouldn't mind paying that premium.

In fact, that ATL has relatively good weather (an "unproductive amenity") could theoretically work against it - that drives up COL there in a way that Amazon the firm doesn't appreciate. It's like building a server farm in a high-rise with a view; you'll locate there if you must, but you'd rather avoid paying for an amenity you don't value.

This all actually totally strengthens your point about Seaport though. The compensating-differentials framework I'm referencing above just emphasizes how it comes down to the Amazon-specific details - not broad generalities about COL and weather. And I totally agree that these specifics do not work in favor of Boston. Seaport is a terrible location for their HQ2 and this lease doesn't make much sense.
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  #324  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 6:55 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Khantilever View Post
Sure, I do agree that ATL has a better shot than Boston, but not due to COL. Not to beat a dead horse here, but I just object to using COL as a measure for comparing cities' attractiveness. Boston is indeed more expensive than ATL, but to the extent that the differential reflects differences in productivity then Amazon shouldn't mind paying that premium.

In fact, that ATL has relatively good weather (an "unproductive amenity") could theoretically work against it - that drives up COL there in a way that Amazon the firm doesn't appreciate. It's like building a server farm in a high-rise with a view; you'll locate there if you must, but you'd rather avoid paying for an amenity you don't value.

This all actually totally strengthens your point about Seaport though. The compensating-differentials framework I'm referencing above just emphasizes how it comes down to the Amazon-specific details - not broad generalities about COL and weather. And I totally agree that these specifics do not work in favor of Boston. Seaport is a terrible location for their HQ2 and this lease doesn't make much sense.
I am curious why you believe Atlanta has a better shot than Boston since you believe CoL and/or CoO (cost of operating) are not one of them.

FYI - Seaport is not just a bad place to build Amazon's HQ2, but it also lacks the acreage to accommodate 8 Million sqft of office space. Which goes back to my initial question why would Amazon just sign a lease for 500K sqft with option for another 500K sqft if they were seriously considering Boston for their HQ2. It simply doesn't make sense.
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  #325  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 7:15 PM
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I am curious why you believe Atlanta has a better shot than Boston since you believe CoL and/or CoO (cost of operating) are not one of them.

FYI - Seaport is not just a bad place to build Amazon's HQ2, but it also lacks the acreage to accommodate 8 Million sqft of office space. Which goes back to my initial question why would Amazon just sign a lease for 500K sqft with option for another 500K sqft if they were seriously considering Boston for their HQ2. It simply doesn't make sense.
For me it comes down to the specifics for Amazon, and the Gulch has a lot more potential than Seaport. I just went to Seaport recently actually and yeah if it could be developed with transit links relatively cheaply and height limits increased (speaking of airports, ATL > Logan) then it would be incredible. But it can't. A

For similar reasons my Top 3 is rounded out with Philly and Chicago, which also offer great sites for development. You'd think that as an economist I'd be thinking of wages etc. but for the reasons I've said that stuff is kinda irrelevant here. Coming back to the points you made earlier, I agree that Boston is just too anti-growth that even if Amazon is willing to pay the higher costs there are just hard constraints on getting people there. Bezos would lose his mind if his plans for world domination were thwarted by local school boards unwilling to increase enrollment.
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  #326  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 7:34 PM
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For me it comes down to the specifics for Amazon, and the Gulch has a lot more potential than Seaport. I just went to Seaport recently actually and yeah if it could be developed with transit links relatively cheaply and height limits increased (speaking of airports, ATL > Logan) then it would be incredible. But it can't. A

For similar reasons my Top 3 is rounded out with Philly and Chicago, which also offer great sites for development. You'd think that as an economist I'd be thinking of wages etc. but for the reasons I've said that stuff is kinda irrelevant here. Coming back to the points you made earlier, I agree that Boston is just too anti-growth that even if Amazon is willing to pay the higher costs there are just hard constraints on getting people there. Bezos would lose his mind if his plans for world domination were thwarted by local school boards unwilling to increase enrollment.
Do you think Chicago's and Illinois' fiscal situation would not impact the city's viability?
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  #327  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 7:41 PM
Khantilever Khantilever is offline
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Do you think Chicago's and Illinois' fiscal situation would not impact the city's viability?
I sure hope not!! I’ll just premise this by saying that I’m approaching this from a more academic perspective which is maybe a bit limiting but also hopefully a more disciplined and unbiased form of armchair theorizing.

In the case of tax liabilities, we should expect that they’re already priced into housing values and, increasingly, wages here. It’s no longer a secret or a surprise that we have a huge unfunded liability. That’s why it’s possible to both have a booming Chicago leading the nation in corporate relocations at the same time as a pension crisis. It 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 for people and firms which were already here, but for potential newcomers they’re getting a discount on land and labor which should offset the future tax increases. In Amazon’s case in particular it means better bargaining power with local government.
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  #328  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Khantilever View Post
I sure hope not!! I’ll just premise this by saying that I’m approaching this from a more academic perspective which is maybe a bit limiting but also hopefully a more disciplined and unbiased form of armchair theorizing.

In the case of tax liabilities, we should expect that they’re already priced into housing values and, increasingly, wages here. It’s no longer a secret or a surprise that we have a huge unfunded liability. That’s why it’s possible to both have a booming Chicago leading the nation in corporate relocations at the same time as a pension crisis. It 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 for people and firms which were already here, but for potential newcomers they’re getting a discount on land and labor which should offset the future tax increases. In Amazon’s case in particular it means better bargaining power with local government.
An unfunded tax liability may be priced into Chicago area housing value, but it has yet to hit retail, city and state taxes - hence the reason they are still unfunded. Once that occurs and taxes across the board are raised, your city's ability to attract talent declines. How much of an impact this will have is TBD, but it could be significant. I would think any company considering Chicago/IL for a large expansion/relocation would be considering this. I am interested in hearing your perspective on this.

FYI - I was a computer science and economics major. Therefore, I am nerd(ing) out on this conversation.
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  #329  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 7:57 PM
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IMHO and I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this, Bezos has kept Chicago (fiscal problems), Austin and Raleigh (transportation and small scale) etc. in the game just to hang them out there. The only real competition is Denver, Dallas, Atlanta, maybe Philly. He'd want DC/VA/MD but can't pull that trigger (cost of living and logistics). Those four mentioned would all be acceptable. It depends on the subvention.
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  #330  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 8:10 PM
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IMHO and I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this, Bezos has kept Chicago (fiscal problems), Austin and Raleigh (transportation and small scale) etc. in the game just to hang them out there. The only real competition is Denver, Dallas, Atlanta, maybe Philly. He'd want DC/VA/MD but can't pull that trigger (cost of living and logistics). Those four mentioned would all be acceptable. It depends on the subvention.
Denver definitely not, only an hour ahead of Seattle, makes no sense, Dallas is even questionable. Raleigh way too small, Philly, gross and disgusting, look at the game yesterday to see the kind of blue collar rednecks that live there.
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  #331  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 8:14 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Denver definitely not, only an hour ahead of Seattle, makes no sense, Dallas is even questionable. Raleigh way too small, Philly, gross and disgusting, look at the game yesterday to see the kind of blue collar rednecks that live there.
No 🞵🞵🞵🞵 - my friends from college that live in Philly call it Penns(a)Tucky. Combine PA with KY.
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  #332  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 9:21 PM
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These lists are getting insane, this one is definitely laughable,,,

http://www.magnifymoney.com/blog/news/ranked-best-finalists-amazons-newest-headquarters955893794/
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  #333  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 9:54 PM
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These lists are getting insane, this one is definitely laughable,,,

http://www.magnifymoney.com/blog/news/ranked-best-finalists-amazons-newest-headquarters955893794/
lmbo...Any list that puts Columbus, Indy, Nashville, Raleigh, and Miami ahead of Atlanta is DOA.
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  #334  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 10:00 PM
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lmbo...Any list that puts Columbus, Indy, Nashville, Raleigh, and Miami ahead of Atlanta is DOA.
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  #335  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 11:19 PM
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These lists are getting insane, this one is definitely laughable,,,

http://www.magnifymoney.com/blog/news/ranked-best-finalists-amazons-newest-headquarters955893794/
Someone has to be the contrarian.
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  #336  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 11:35 PM
Khantilever Khantilever is offline
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Originally Posted by Atlanta3000 View Post
An unfunded tax liability may be priced into Chicago area housing value, but it has yet to hit retail, city and state taxes - hence the reason they are still unfunded. Once that occurs and taxes across the board are raised, your city's ability to attract talent declines. How much of an impact this will have is TBD, but it could be significant. I would think any company considering Chicago/IL for a large expansion/relocation would be considering this. I am interested in hearing your perspective on this.

FYI - I was a computer science and economics major. Therefore, I am nerd(ing) out on this conversation.
Haha awesome! Always fun to talk to fellow econ nerds, especially because this is a great topic to try and apply our knowledge. The problem of course is that it’s easier to use it to challenge predictions than to make them. My PhD advisor has actually been quoted in a lot of the big Amazon prediction articles out there. But when I talked to him about it he laughed and called their predictions BS since they fundamentally misunderstood his research and just the general framework used to understand these issues. Even some of the more “complex” analyses are complete nonsense, like the really fancy Moody’s one - they’re using fundamentally inconsistent methodologies in their model.

Anyway, that’s a good point. There’s still uncertainty over *how* taxes will be raised, and that uncertainty means it might not be priced in in a way that Amazon is sufficiently insured against it. What’s more is that there could be legitimate concern that future investments in infrastructure will be limited due to the fiscal problems. That said, I think this is precisely why Amazon is going through this competition to get incentives and infrastructure investment promises.

But again, I mean if it’s not priced in already, how then do we explain why so many people and firms are still coming to Chicago? If the flow was small then I do think that would be a strong reason for Amazon to not come, but there is a huge inflow of college grads and just general labor market churn that I don’t think they should have any trouble recruiting.
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  #337  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 11:45 PM
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Regarding Chicago and Illinois inbound investment, one must factor in the counterparty risk of near-term bankruptcy.
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  #338  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 12:03 AM
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No 🞵🞵🞵🞵 - my friends from college that live in Philly call it Penns(a)Tucky. Combine PA with KY.
The (not very nice) joke is not that Philadelphia is Pennsyltucky, but that Pennsylvania is Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Kentucky in between.

Regardless, you're going to try to compare the cultural sophistication of Philadelphia (which is not at all representative of the rural parts of Pennsylvania), the second-largest city on the East Coast, with centuries of history and a volume and caliber of cultural and educational institutions that put any city in the South to shame, and smack dab in the middle of a megalopolis that is the most economically and culturally important region of the entire country, with that of...Atlanta?

And the gall of Georgians calling Pennsylvanians rednecks...
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  #339  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 12:07 AM
Khantilever Khantilever is offline
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Regarding Chicago and Illinois inbound investment, one must factor in the counterparty risk of near-term bankruptcy.
Well Mayor Rahm Emanuel is infamous for saying “you never let a serious crisis go to waste” during the financial crisis, back when he was chief of staff for Obama. I only hope Bezos shares that philosophy
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  #340  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 12:14 AM
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The (not very nice) joke is not that Philadelphia is Pennsyltucky, but that Pennsylvania is Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Kentucky in between.

Regardless, you're going to try to compare the cultural sophistication of Philadelphia (which is not at all representative of the rural parts of Pennsylvania), the second-largest city on the East Coast, with centuries of history and a volume and caliber of cultural and educational institutions that put any city in the South to shame, and smack dab in the middle of a megalopolis that is the most economically and culturally important region of the entire country, with that of...Atlanta?

And the gall of Georgians calling Pennsylvanians rednecks...
most folks here in the Atl know that what you're saying about Philly is true. What a great city! ...But I bet you'd be surprised with Atlanta's charms and culture. It's no more Georgia than Philly is PA.
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