PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[ebuilder]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Yep. And, the fact that our infrastructure and mass transit systems are falling behind most developed countries is appalling. When we do have a chance to make major improvements/changes and to bring in a new look or maybe even new technology, the people in charge have no vision and/or will whatsoever to demand it. For reference, take a look at the alpha Asian cities, modern mass transit, bullet trains, state of the art design airports and technology, clean cities, well urban design plans, and the list can go on and on. Just take a look of the walking tour or drone 4k video of them online and you will see what I mean. Major cities in the US need to step it up and think 15-20 years down the road, but the people that make these decisions are very short sighted and bad planners at best. It's like we are in a bad dream stuck in the movie Groundhog day or something

Mass transit has to be a national priority. Citizens can't be asleep at the wheel when it comes to choosing leaders and parties and then sit back and complain that we don't have trains and stations that rival Europe and Asia. It has nothing to do with SEPTA, it's about national priorities. Many Americans (and politicians) do not see any need for mass transit or a modernized Amtrak and these people do not support a major commitment to upgrading rail and mass transit. That is reality. The bulk of the rail infrastructure in Europe was built in the 50s and later after the continent was leveled by a war. Not the case in the US, much of the rail infrastructure here dates back to the early 20th century. When the gov started taking over the failing remnants of the private railroads the infrastructure was a total mess after decades of neglect. At no point did state or local governments make a massive commitment to upgrade that infrastructure and bring it up to first world standards.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I just hate that every subway car is basic silver and every trolley is plain white. Ditto for buses. F'ng design a futuristic, might I dare say, cool carriage. That includes not just shape, but the friggin paint color as well.

I'm not an expert on Septa livery but the newer style buses look sharp and modern to me. I know if Europe thye generally have "loud" colors for their buses but I like the clean look of ours.





I think Septa buses hold their ground:

Munich:


NYC:




I'm even less on your side with the subway cars - stainless steel will always look good and are more or less maintenance free. Once again for me, it looks very classic (especially the El which is probably more relevant because people not on the system actually see those trains go by).

[ebuilder]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I don't mind the Logo itself. I just hate that every subway car is basic silver and every trolley is plain white. Ditto for buses. F'ng design a futuristic, might I dare say, cool carriage. That includes not just shape, but the friggin paint color as well.

I know one mind find it hard to believe, but more people might ride public transit if it LOOKED cool. Not like the equivalent of a Ford Pinto on rails. Because that's literally what we have now.

Since rail cars need to last 40 years or so and SS is virtually maintenance free you tend to find most rail cars have SS skins with minimal painting/covering. The BSL cars used to be half orange but over the years they have removed the paint and just let the SS show, probably because of the cost of trying to keep the orange looking presentable. The trolleys are painted top to bottom however- but this means time and money must be spent repainting them completely every few years during overhauls. Most SEPTA cars are over 35 years old so it's not surprising they look a little dated.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Completely agree here.


I think we are looking way too much into the trolley scheme. These are typically just for show. Septa had a rendering of their new electric regional rail loco with red and blue lines across the side and a small septa logo. Instead, the first loco was delivered with "Septa" written across the side in size 5,000 font.

This was done because it was determined that the original paint scheme looked too much like Amtrak's.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Call me crazy but I've always been a fan of the gold and red shield scheme from the 60s and early 70s

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by Justin7

[Parkway]

Frequency and speed do far more for ridership than nice paint ever will (not that I really have a problem with the current look). Until we, as a city are willing to sit down and sacrifice some parking on the alter of better public transportation SEPTA's service and ridership will continue to suffer.

We also have to admit that buses don't have to stop every block and that signal priority is necessary.

[MikeNigh]

Originally Posted by Parkway

We also have to admit that buses don't have to stop every block and that signal priority is necessary.

Last I heard a few years ago they were working on signal priority.

[Busy Bee]

Random pic of a Leipzig tram just because it looks smart and would love to see slick styling like this on the new trolleys:


_

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Random pic of a Leipzig tram just because it looks smart and would love to see slick styling like this on the new trolleys:


_

This is a great example of what it could look like.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by ebuilder

Since rail cars need to last 40 years or so and SS is virtually maintenance free you tend to find most rail cars have SS skins with minimal painting/covering. The BSL cars used to be half orange but over the years they have removed the paint and just let the SS show, probably because of the cost of trying to keep the orange looking presentable. The trolleys are painted top to bottom however- but this means time and money must be spent repainting them completely every few years during overhauls. Most SEPTA cars are over 35 years old so it's not surprising they look a little dated.

Only in America, mate. Any other civilized country's trains features some sort of a color scheme with fibre glass/plastic/metal skeleton. Google image search "european trains." Our trains, from a design comparison, are laughable.

I agree with everything 3rd and Brown said.

This is Nice's trolley/tram system:


So is this:
Source: Tramway.nice.fr


In a civilized country you can have a lush lawn - great for storm runoff - down the middle of your trolley track (which was included in the above proposal). In Philly that would be a weeded/trash strewn pit in about 2 months - awful idea.

I agree that if we had more funding that would help with a lot of Septa's woes, but i'm just not sure how imaginative they are collectively regardless of $$.

[ebuilder]

^considering the existing cars are almost 40 years old I'm sure whatever replaces them will seem extremely modern and in line with what other world class cities have. Outdated rolling stock is a common problem for older US transit systems. MTA is using some subway cars from the 60s according to recent article.

[ebuilder]

Light rail isn't the same as heavy commuter rail. US agencies that have commuter rail service that can share tracks with freight trains are tightly regulated in terms of crashworthiness which makes US trains heavier, more expensive and slower accelerating than their counterparts around the world- this is one reason why Acela trains fall short of the speed of foreign high speed rail lines. There aren't going to be any plastic commuter rail cars in the US anytime soon. The trolleys are light rail and thus far less restricted since they don't mingle with any freight trains. Current trolleys are painted and I suspect the new ones would be as well. I mean the cars are from 1981- they aren't close to state of the art so its not surprising they look like crap compared to brand new European (or American) streetcars.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by ebuilder

Light rail isn't the same as heavy commuter rail. US agencies that have commuter rail service that can share tracks with freight trains are tightly regulated in terms of crashworthiness which makes US trains heavier, more expensive and slower accelerating than their counterparts around the world- this is one reason why Acela trains fall short of the speed of foreign high speed rail lines. There aren't going to be any plastic commuter rail cars in the US anytime soon. The trolleys are light rail and thus far less restricted since they don't mingle with any freight trains. Current trolleys are painted and I suspect the new ones would be as well. I mean the cars are from 1981- they aren't close to state of the art so its not surprising they look like crap compared to brand new European (or American) streetcars.

Interesting info.

Also a reminder to be careful what you wish for in terms of European subway cars with interesting paint schemes.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by ebuilder

^considering the existing cars are almost 40 years old I'm sure whatever replaces them will seem extremely modern and in line with what other world class cities have. Outdated rolling stock is a common problem for older US transit systems. MTA is using some subway cars from the 60s according to recent article.

They'll probably pick something out that was relevant in 1995.

The same way my mom still lusts for tumbled stone tile on her backsplash because that's what my dad told her she couldn't have in 2002 when he veto'd her kitchen upgrades.

You see. The people making decisions are stale crackers. Or they never leave their little box. Either way. I assure you whatever we get there will be better more relevant options available for basically the same exact cost.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

They'll probably pick something out that was relevant in 1995.

The same way my mom still lusts for tumbled stone tile on her backsplash because that's what my dad told her she couldn't have in 2002 when he veto'd her kitchen upgrades.

You see. The people making decisions are stale crackers. Or they never leave their little box. Either way. I assure you whatever we get there will be better more relevant options available for basically the same exact cost.

Unfortunately, I find myself pretty in agreement with everything you've said. It's an extremely sad truth that American culture seems to value (or comprehend) good design in general much less than much of the rest of the world. Look at much of our built environment dear god.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Rome is an outlier. Rome and Italy in general doesn't seem to prioritize or have the budget to keep their trains free of graffiti. The Rome Metro looks like New York in the early 80s...

[Busy Bee]

If they're going to stick with the Bicentennial livery, I think it looked much better back before they started to downplay it and muddle it with gradients and such:


_



_



_

[Knight Hospitaller]

My question is how long the cars will be and how they will be articulated. There are some very tight turns in the tunnels.

While we're at it, can a moderator have someone add the mass transit thread to the Philadelphia list? Right now one has to seek it out (so discussions like this don't make it there).

[Busy Bee]

Just spitballing here but if SEPTA went in a heritage direction and wanted to revive the PTC livery, Helsinki gives a great example of what that might look like on a modern tram:


_