Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Here is the thing, these projects are half demand and half political.

The cost of building skytrain in one go all the way too UBC sadly would be too much for the mayors of other communities to handle.

The best compromise is indeed to build it as Skytrain in phases, phase one to Arbutus (which honestly handles the most important portion of the project) while allowing projects to be built elsewhere in the region (Surrey's misguided LRT, hopefully skytrain to Langley, Pattullo Bridge, etc...).

The other realistic compromise is the bad compromise, and that would be a cheaped out surface LRT built all the way to UBC in one go. Now that would be an appropriate use of the term, "under building."

Would it be feasible to bore the tunnel all the way to UBC and then just build the stations and install the working parts to arbutus?

[White Pine]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I really think it should go straight to UBC. Money, cost-effectiveness, whatever. TransLink isn't a business. There are thousands and thousands of transit users headed to UBC every day and the bus system is having a very hard time accommodating them. A higher-capacity solution is needed, it's just logical. We can't just keep spending all those bus resources and straining the system because UBC students pay reduced fares.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but this is the kind of thinking that kills transit projects. If the line were to go all the way, it would be hugely expensive, but more importantly, politically unpopular. It would likely be made into a political issue and the government would be blamed for wasting billions of dollars on rich, lazy, latte-sipping students. Protests ensue, and before you know it, a new government comes in listens to the people, and *zap* the project is dead.

Or, if one were to insist a connection to UBC, the whole thing would be downgraded to on-street LRT because politicians can't be seen throwing around that kind of money. Then what will we have? not much better than now. This exact fight happened before they chose skytrain as the preferred transit for broadway. Does nobody remember this?

Phasing is the way to go, because it's the only option that will get you a half decent system in the end. Yet lots of people don't have the patience to see this. No, we can't have a subway system serving the whole city built all at once. If we did, it would be a financial disaster and a government killer. Yet what bugs me the most is when the people crying foul about the cost get a concession in the form of reduced project scope and change their tune and start crying about a "train to nowhere". The only reason it goes nowhere was that you fought against it when it actually went somewhere!

I'm not completely singling you out, GlassCity. By that last paragraph I was referring more to the Sun News types, because that's the kind of stuff they do. But look how hard it is to run a train through a city core. Check out the state of the DRL in Toronto, the most badly needed project in at least eastern Canada, which no government will touch with a 10 foot pole, advancing as slowly as possible, at the same time other useless subways to the suburbs are built, making the DRL even more needed. Ottawa even is starting to follow the same path, and remember all the people who were fighting the Canada line? In Calgary the whole Green line was at risk of being neutered because it didn't go far enough, and only got pushed over the hill by a hotly contested election.

My point is that for transit in Urban areas, it's so hard to pull off that you need to take what you can get. If you ask for more you will get nothing.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by White Pine

I'm not saying you're wrong, but this is the kind of thinking that kills transit projects. If the line were to go all the way, it would be hugely expensive, but more importantly, politically unpopular. It would likely be made into a political issue and the government would be blamed for wasting billions of dollars on rich, lazy, latte-sipping students. Protests ensue, and before you know it, a new government comes in listens to the people, and *zap* the project is dead.

Or, if one were to insist a connection to UBC, the whole thing would be downgraded to on-street LRT because politicians can't be seen throwing around that kind of money. Then what will we have? not much better than now. This exact fight happened before they chose skytrain as the preferred transit for broadway. Does nobody remember this?

Phasing is the way to go, because it's the only option that will get you a half decent system in the end. Yet lots of people don't have the patience to see this. No, we can't have a subway system serving the whole city built all at once. If we did, it would be a financial disaster and a government killer. Yet what bugs me the most is when the people crying foul about the cost get a concession in the form of reduced project scope and change their tune and start crying about a "train to nowhere". The only reason it goes nowhere was that you fought against it when it actually went somewhere!

I'm not completely singling you out, GlassCity. By that last paragraph I was referring more to the Sun News types, because that's the kind of stuff they do. But look how hard it is to run a train through a city core. Check out the state of the DRL in Toronto, the most badly needed project in at least eastern Canada, which no government will touch with a 10 foot pole, advancing as slowly as possible, at the same time other useless subways to the suburbs are built, making the DRL even more needed. Ottawa even is starting to follow the same path, and remember all the people who were fighting the Canada line? In Calgary the whole Green line was at risk of being neutered because it didn't go far enough, and only got pushed over the hill by a hotly contested election.

My point is that for transit in Urban areas, it's so hard to pull off that you need to take what you can get. If you ask for more you will get nothing.

Good post. I don't disagree with you that politics is extremely important in transit projects, I just didn't think a SkyTrain line to UBC would be that politically unpopular. It's easily the most badly needed transit project in the region and thousands of people use it. I live in South Delta, so I'm well aware of suburbanite transit misconceptions (next project should be Canada Line to Tsawassen!! ) but I just didn't think ending it at Arbutus or at UBC would make a huge difference. I don't think the average person is really that involved in counting out millions spent in different corridors, but I could be wrong.

But anyway, not really the point I was trying to make in my first post anyway. While I personally think a line to UBC should be the first priority, I more broadly mean that it should be done as quickly as possible/politically feasible, and if that involves phasing, so be it. The point wasn't so much supposed to be that it should go all the way to UBC right away, as much that the fact that UBC students pay reduced fares shouldn't impact the decision to have the line go there at some point in the future.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Here are some excerpts from the UBC U-Pass website.


https://planning.ubc.ca/vancouver/transportation-planning/u-pass-compass-card/u-pass-faq

It's like a health club membership - TransLink and UBC are relying on some students not using the U-Pass program to help pay for the overall program.

Came across this from a 2005 Report linked at Wikipedia, which basically says
- TransLink is getting the same amount of revenue compared to if the U-Pass system had not been implemented
- but the unspoken caveat is that it's same revenue, but more riders.

It's stated in the middle of the quote:
"... TransLink does not gain any additional revenue from the increase in transit usage from the U-Pass program..."
That still means that U-Pass student ridership is not equivalent - on a farebox basis per student - to full paying customers.


http://trek.ubc.ca/files/2010/08/U-PassReview.pdf

also, translink is expecting some of the ubc students will become accustomed to using transit and will continue to use it more in their post-ubc life

[Colin4567]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

also, translink is expecting some of the ubc students will become accustomed to using transit and will continue to use it more in their post-ubc life

That's exactly it though - show them the convenience of transit and they'll stick to it. I remember reading that the lasting effect of the Olympic-era transit improvements boosted transit number by like 7% in the long-run as people realized how convenient it can be for some routes. It's a similar thing (and I really want to avoid making this political) with voting. Those that vote in their first two elections are more likely to be frequent voters by some large factor.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by White Pine

I'm not saying you're wrong, but this is the kind of thinking that kills transit projects. If the line were to go all the way, it would be hugely expensive, but more importantly, politically unpopular. It would likely be made into a political issue and the government would be blamed for wasting billions of dollars on rich, lazy, latte-sipping students. Protests ensue, and before you know it, a new government comes in listens to the people, and *zap* the project is dead.

As much as it good to have a line all the way out to UBC, we just don't have the money for it. Plus building the whole thing in one phase would mean not building anything for the rest of the region, which really wouldn't be popular - *zap* is exactly what would happen with a new government.

The whole region needs attention and I'm happy to see TransLink is looking into upgrading Express and B-Line buses and adding new routes to that. Sure it won't be as cool as a new Skytrain line, but it'll help a lot of people.

[jsbertram]

theres also the ribbon-cutting photo-op factor, where the pols starting a project like to have it finished while they're still in power, so a decade-long project is a tough sell - but a project done in smaller phases can be completed quicker, assuring them of a photo-op at the completion of each phase

ie: site C was started by the previous gov't and almost killed by the current gov't even though over a $ billion was already spent

[Hot Rod]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Would it be feasible to bore the tunnel all the way to UBC and then just build the stations and install the working parts to arbutus?

this is what I'm talking about, build the tunnels now but come back later to do the stations. ... should be much cheaper in the short and long run, while providing political flexibility for other transit options in the region. Esp when you consider the TBMs could go just to the UBC land border while the UBC portion could be cut and cover for most/all of that routing. ... [Artubus to UBC Border isn't but 2 miles/$200M (for TBMs), right?]

I wish UBC could go ahead and fund their portion (perhaps even build their station(s) as well. then let the COV shell in the three or four remaining stations (after arbutus but before UBC lands) as money and political will see fit.

[Hot Rod]

thanks for the info on Upass UBC. I see it is different from the UW UPass is Seattle (in that UBC isn't sponsored/subsidized) but I do see it as a bulk ridership that Translink can depend upon. Also realize that students dont use Upass every day; just those commuting and even then they may not likely use it every day.

One other suggestion might be for UBC to implement a student transit fee to fund the UBC lands portion and station(s), and I think they could use a modern streetcar to circulate to their residential and beach areas; providing a full vehicle free experience for those who study, work, and reside in the UBC city area. ...

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Would it be feasible to bore the tunnel all the way to UBC and then just build the stations and install the working parts to arbutus?

I think that's a great idea if financially feasible. It's being 'proactive.'

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

this is what I'm talking about, build the tunnels now but come back later to do the stations. ... should be much cheaper in the short and long run, while providing political flexibility for other transit options in the region. Esp when you consider the TBMs could go just to the UBC land border while the UBC portion could be cut and cover for most/all of that routing. ... [Artubus to UBC Border isn't but 2 miles/$200M (for TBMs), right?]

You two got it; I think that would turn out to be the miost practical way to go, timewise, and $$$wise, as cganuelas says too.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

One other suggestion might be for UBC to implement a student transit fee to fund the UBC lands portion and station(s), and I think they could use a modern streetcar to circulate to their residential and beach areas; providing a full vehicle free experience for those who study, work, and reside in the UBC city area. ...

Can't find the link (or for that matter, many news articles from 2011 or before), but UBC's said they won't pay for any of it. They're also on the record as wanting an LRT right now rather than waiting for SkyTrain, so let's count them out of any M-Line contribution.

A streetcar along the north coast? Not a bad idea. It could branch off the False Creek line and run down Point Grey Road to NW Marine, serving the beaches.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

thanks for the info on Upass UBC. I see it is different from the UW UPass is Seattle (in that UBC isn't sponsored/subsidized) but I do see it as a bulk ridership that Translink can depend upon.

The other benefit of U-Pass that's not often discussed is that it teaches a substantial portion of students that transit is a viable way to get around the city. That can build a transit habit among graduates that leads to an increased transit mode share over the coming years.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Can't find the link (or for that matter, many news articles from 2011 or before), but UBC's said they won't pay for any of it. They're also on the record as wanting an LRT right now rather than waiting for SkyTrain, so let's count them out of any M-Line contribution.

A streetcar along the north coast? Not a bad idea. It could branch off the False Creek line and run down Point Grey Road to NW Marine, serving the beaches.

Well in 2013:

UBC president Stephen Toope said it’s crucial to start the planning now. But he noted it’s premature to say whether UBC would contribute to the cost of the project.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Vancouv...+could+turn+area+into/8030379/story.html

2015:

But the Broadway Skytrain extension is planned to end at Arbutus Street – not all the way to UBC. Gupta said he believes a full extension should be a phase 2 of that project and says the university would consider raising money to bring the line farther to campus when that second phase is discussed.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/broadway-bus-pass-ups-unacceptable-ubc-president-1.2263923

[Migrant_Coconut]

I stand corrected. Good on UBC then.

[WarrenC12]

It would be interesting to see what the cost deltas are for building this in phases, vs. something like boring a tunnel right to UBC to start, but only having stations to Arbutus, then a UBC terminus.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It would be interesting to see what the cost deltas are for building this in phases, vs. something like boring a tunnel right to UBC to start, but only having stations to Arbutus, then a UBC terminus.

Thank you for this informed idea. I must ask how possible/feasible/doable the second option you cite might be: tunnel Arbutus -UBC, no stations in between.
If there were enough bus space passenger space, escalator space and platform space at Arbutus in particular, I think it's an option.
It would, for a number of years anyway, turn Arbutus- and lesserly UBC - into a vehicle transit hub, and that requires bus lane space.
It also has to be big enough to take in and disgorge large #s of pax at certain times especially. Big enough, wide enough, sufficient platforms, easy entrance and exit ....

Is this at all a viable option, in your opinion? Thank you, if you would respond.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Well in 2013:



http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Vancouv...+could+turn+area+into/8030379/story.html

2015:



https://bc.ctvnews.ca/broadway-bus-pass-ups-unacceptable-ubc-president-1.2263923

It's good to finally see UBC willing to come to the table and contribute. Hopefully something can be negotiated while Phase 1 is under-construction so that Phase 2 can get started immediately after.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It would be interesting to see what the cost deltas are for building this in phases, vs. something like boring a tunnel right to UBC to start, but only having stations to Arbutus, then a UBC terminus.

with a ubc terminus station, that eliminates the need for the b-line bus to operate between arbutus and ubc since barely 10% of that traffic is using the stops other than ubc and arbutus

perhaps it can be replaced with the local #9 to blanca loop (no need to go all the way to ubc loop, since the subway would be doing that)

im not sure if the cost savings have been estimated if most of the local routes to ubc are cut back to blanca loop, sasamat loop or dunbar loop or eliminated (b-line), since passengers to ubc should be transferring to skytrain as early as possible in their trip

[swimmer_spe]

Could the line be brought back above ground through the park adjacent to the university?

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]