DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Stonemans_rowJ]

The norm in Stapleton is basements; a very high percentage, I would say 90% of all homes. There are some courtyard bungalow style SFHs w/o basements though, total square footage like 1700-1800'. KB Homes did some like this, probably other builders.

None of the attached slot homes have basements, or at least again like 95% do not have basements. I'm talking the vast majority of those fugly slot homes in Jefferson Park, Lohi, North Denver. Although there are a few "more upscale" rows that did excavate basements and were geared more towards older buyers and 2nd homes. There's one on Zuni and another between 17th and Central.

I have only seen a few "pre-war" homes that did not have basements here in Denver and they were from early 1940's. So I don't know if that's considered pre-war. Like build date of 1940. And the norm now is creating usable space in your basement. It's rare to see a bungalow for sale that hasn't done something with the basement, It's extremely common to see an extra bed and bath down there. Much cheaper than going up and "popping the top" although you only get typically 6'8"-7' of finished height, whereas the Stapleton basements you generally get 9' finished height or at least 8'.

What is the added cost to excavate? It seems to me that while labor has gotten more expensive, the cost of machinery, fuel, operators, etc. would be relatively equivalent to 6 years ago whereas the land costs have doubled.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

There are some courtyard bungalow style SFHs w/o basements though, total square footage like 1700-1800'. KB Homes did some like this, probably other builders.

I'm familiar with KB's patio homes; they built them in several places in Arapahoe Co/Aurora in Cherry Creek School District. Bunch of them east of the Broncos facility off Arapahoe Rd.

The yesterday's starter homes I was thinking of are post-war (1950's) neighborhoods in SE Denver like Virginia Village and University Hills.

Funky Friday
Marriott's new 1501-room convention hotel has reached the 70% completion point. Pretty interesting...

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/...s-hotel-construction-is-70-complete.html

Originally Posted by Denver Business Journal
After an aggressive construction schedule involving some 1,300 temporary construction workers, builders of the Gaylord Rockies Resort & Convention Center in Aurora say they are 70 percent complete and should have no problem opening by late November 2018, as has been their plan. ... its more than 2 million square feet is the largest lodging facility currently being constructed in the United States.

How did you manage the tight labor market?

The company also invested heavily in its 79 subcontractors, signing on five different drywalling firms and two separate electrical subcontractors to ensure that it did not fall behind in its plans. Bray estimated that Rida is spending about $20 million per month on construction.

How's the convention business looking way out there?

The $800 million project already has booked more than 627,000 room nights for conferences and meetings, beginning in February 2019 and running as far out as 2028.

Is Aurora excited?

Aurora leaders note that 85 percent of the groups booking rooms in the facility are groups that have not held conventions in the Denver area previously, bringing a huge economic boom to the area.

[CastleScott]

Looks like RiNo is getting a new 5-7 story apt project (saw it on Denverinfill).

[CastleScott]

^ Gaylord project is in today's post:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/08/gaylord-rockies-resort-and-convention-center-aurora/

[spr8364]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

The norm in Stapleton is basements; a very high percentage, I would say 90% of all homes. There are some courtyard bungalow style SFHs w/o basements though, total square footage like 1700-1800'. KB Homes did some like this, probably other builders.

None of the attached slot homes have basements, or at least again like 95% do not have basements. I'm talking the vast majority of those fugly slot homes in Jefferson Park, Lohi, North Denver. Although there are a few "more upscale" rows that did excavate basements and were geared more towards older buyers and 2nd homes. There's one on Zuni and another between 17th and Central.

I have only seen a few "pre-war" homes that did not have basements here in Denver and they were from early 1940's. So I don't know if that's considered pre-war. Like build date of 1940. And the norm now is creating usable space in your basement. It's rare to see a bungalow for sale that hasn't done something with the basement, It's extremely common to see an extra bed and bath down there. Much cheaper than going up and "popping the top" although you only get typically 6'8"-7' of finished height, whereas the Stapleton basements you generally get 9' finished height or at least 8'.

What is the added cost to excavate? It seems to me that while labor has gotten more expensive, the cost of machinery, fuel, operators, etc. would be relatively equivalent to 6 years ago whereas the land costs have doubled.

Since houses without basements in Colorado are usually built over a crawl space, they have already excavated half the basement. They have the equipment on site and they don't need added mobilization costs. There is the added cost of removing the extra dirt to off site and also adding a concrete slab. But, I have heard numbers of 1/3 the cost for below grade square footage compared to 1st floor square footage.

[CastleScott]

Anyone here think that Denver is ready for an Intercontinental Hotel? I do and a couple of great sites could be the Emily Griffith site or Block 162 (condos could be part of the mix too).


Oh btw maybe that 90 proposal could host an Intercontinental as well-look what happened in downtown LA with the tallest open air bar (might be a problem in winter though but Denver needs an observation deck of some sorts).

[BG918]

Originally Posted by CastleScott

Anyone here think that Denver is ready for an Intercontinental Hotel? I do and a couple of great sites could be the Emily Griffith site or Block 162 (condos could be part of the mix too).


Oh btw maybe that 90 proposal could host an Intercontinental as well-look what happened in downtown LA with the tallest open air bar (might be a problem in winter though but Denver needs an observation deck of some sorts).

Intercontinental and Omni would be great in the convention center area. Downtown Denver still lacks a full service Hilton which was rumored at one time to be part of Block 162. Also a W Hotel, any news on that proposal on the Bell Tower site at 14th & Larimer?

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CastleScott

Anyone here think that Denver is ready for an Intercontinental Hotel? I do and a couple of great sites could be the Emily Griffith site or Block 162 (condos could be part of the mix too).

Denver may not have their flagship but Hotel Indigo developed by John Portman & Assoc in DUS is an IHG brand. Additionally Kimpton Hotels is a private subsidiary of InterContinental Hotels Group. The new Hotel Born is their 2nd in Denver.

[CONative]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

The norm in Stapleton is basements; a very high percentage, I would say 90% of all homes. There are some courtyard bungalow style SFHs w/o basements though, total square footage like 1700-1800'. KB Homes did some like this, probably other builders.

None of the attached slot homes have basements, or at least again like 95% do not have basements. I'm talking the vast majority of those fugly slot homes in Jefferson Park, Lohi, North Denver. Although there are a few "more upscale" rows that did excavate basements and were geared more towards older buyers and 2nd homes. There's one on Zuni and another between 17th and Central.

I have only seen a few "pre-war" homes that did not have basements here in Denver and they were from early 1940's. So I don't know if that's considered pre-war. Like build date of 1940. And the norm now is creating usable space in your basement. It's rare to see a bungalow for sale that hasn't done something with the basement, It's extremely common to see an extra bed and bath down there. Much cheaper than going up and "popping the top" although you only get typically 6'8"-7' of finished height, whereas the Stapleton basements you generally get 9' finished height or at least 8'.

What is the added cost to excavate? It seems to me that while labor has gotten more expensive, the cost of machinery, fuel, operators, etc. would be relatively equivalent to 6 years ago whereas the land costs have doubled.

As far as just single-family....In addition to the courtyard KB homes (which were actually called the Coach House Series), Stapleton also has Boulder Creek homes that do not have basements as standard (in the southern portion). A number of the townhome and ground floor condos don't as well.

...and my Stapleton house has 10' finished ceilings (and it did cost extra to dig further), and it makes it feel even more "unbasement-like" than the 8' or 9' finished basements.

It may not be ideal with the older (pre-war) homes that have short ceilings and the very "basement-like feeling" when finished, but I'm seeing a lot of finished basements being chosen by new-build home buyers across the Front Range (because they don't seem so "basement-like" anymore and because it's cheaper than above-ground)....a lot more than it used to be.

[CastleScott]

^ Ahh the good ole Colorado basements-not only extra room with a big screen TV for sports plus a wet bar and a pool table to boot and oh btw if you lived near Castle Rock or the central/eastern plains it was a good place to hide out during a tornado warning as well. Ahh the good ole days!!

Oh btw its great to see the Broncos finally win one!!!

[jubguy3]

I dug down in my 1918 tudor Yalecrest house in SLC (which is similar in nature to many homes in Denver) a foot and had to leave a foot around the outside for the foundation footing where I ended up installing custom bookshelves. I got much needed extra height but it was expensive to do, digging through the clay was expensive and difficult and my basement was effectively shrunken by 12 inches on each side. That being said I was able to finish my basement with 8'5" ceilings which was much better than the 7' from before. I have two bedrooms, a pantry, all the utilities, a large bath / laundry combo and a TV room. I think this was right as the recession happened and it cost 85k but surprisingly had an equal return on investment because you can utilize another 800-1000 sq feet of the house without major structural changes.

Does denver really have many pre-war homes without basements? I am shopping in NE SLC and I haven't come across a single home built before 1940 that does not have a basement. What prompts the discrepancy between SLC and DEN? Is it even true that few pre-war homes have basements in Denver? Does anyone know why this pattern exists?

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

Does denver really have many pre-war homes without basements? I am shopping in NE SLC and I haven't come across a single home built before 1940 that does not have a basement. What prompts the discrepancy between SLC and DEN? Is it even true that few pre-war homes have basements in Denver? Does anyone know why this pattern exists?

No, Most/all pre-war homes in Denver have some sort of basement, same as SLC

[CONative]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

No, Most/all pre-war homes in Denver have some sort of basement, same as SLC

Agreed. Almost all pre-war Denver homes have basements (90%-99%). Post-war and current homes are also a very high percentage (probably over 90%).

[HighSt.]

A

[CastleScott]

^ My in-laws lived a long time in a 1919 bugalow with a full basement in Denver's historic Baker hood.

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by CONative

As far as just single-family....In addition to the courtyard KB homes (which were actually called the Coach House Series), Stapleton also has Boulder Creek homes that do not have basements as standard (in the southern portion). A number of the townhome and ground floor condos don't as well.

...and my Stapleton house has 10' finished ceilings (and it did cost extra to dig further), and it makes it feel even more "unbasement-like" than the 8' or 9' finished basements.

It may not be ideal with the older (pre-war) homes that have short ceilings and the very "basement-like feeling" when finished, but I'm seeing a lot of finished basements being chosen by new-build home buyers across the Front Range (because they don't seem so "basement-like" anymore and because it's cheaper than above-ground)....a lot more than it used to be.

Yeah, we're building a Parkwood up in Beeler park and the basements are 9' (1st floor = 10, 2nd floor & basement = 9, 3rd floor = 8). Definitely feels like a just another room with the taller ceilings and the bigger egresses required these days for new homes.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by BG918

Intercontinental and Omni would be great in the convention center area. Downtown Denver still lacks a full service Hilton which was rumored at one time to be part of Block 162. Also a W Hotel, any news on that proposal on the Bell Tower site at 14th & Larimer?

The Marriott City Center at 18th and California just reflagged to Hilton City Center- so now downtown has a full-service Hilton but lacks a full-service Marriott. That does open up the possibility of for a Marriott, Intercontinental, or Omni near the Convention Center. White Lodging (redeveloping the Emily Griffith Campus) has developed several full-service hotels under the Marriott flat, so this reflagging of City Center might be related.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

The Marriott City Center at 18th and California just reflagged to Hilton City Center- so now downtown has a full-service Hilton but lacks a full-service Marriott. That does open up the possibility of for a Marriott, Intercontinental, or Omni near the Convention Center. White Lodging (redeveloping the Emily Griffith Campus) has developed several full-service hotels under the Marriott flat, so this reflagging of City Center might be related.

Wait... Stonebridge bought the Emily Griffith block. White Lodging has developed three projects, two of them double branded near the CCC. Wouldn't surprise me if they partnered with Stonebridge however.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Wait... Stonebridge bought the Emily Griffith block. White Lodging has developed three projects, two of them double branded near the CCC. Wouldn't surprise me if they partnered with Stonebridge however.

They did? Huh, I thought that it was White Lodging. *Looks at property records* Well, it turns out that Stonebridge is the developer, as well as the developer of the new dual-brand hotel going up at 15th & Stout.

So much for my theory.

[TakeFive]

Oh oh; Stonemans_rowJ was correct: Severe is Here