Winnipeg | Exchange District | Developments & Discussions

[wardlow]

From my understanding, they could have demolished 98 Albert (the little old gas station/Bodego’s), but there were issues regarding a single parking space, garbage facilities, and transformer. Initially, the design had these things accessible off of the Arthur Street side of the new building, but given the important location, the City felt Arthur shouldn’t be treated like the ‘back’ of the building. The owner came back with a new design, which had the parking space and garbage area cut out of the side of 90 Albert (the small three-storey brick building) off the lane. But this wasn’t supported either.

The owner has cancelled the project because escalating costs and the design challenges were too much. Really unfortunate – I liked the look of the proposed building, smart and understated, sensitive to the surrounding context without being too cartoonitage.

Heritage and urban design issues were a big part of that, no doubt. I really think a good honest reevaluation of the concept of heritage is due in Winnipeg: move beyond fetishizing every detail of every old building and keeping the Exchange District looking like a giant movie set, and instead working toward conserving the patterns of streets and their neighbourhoods. This is especially important as the preservationists move beyond just saving everything built 1900-’14, and are now setting their sights on Modern buildings.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Portmanteau

I just want to chime in quickly about living in the Exchange. I moved here because it's a historic neighbourhood, and I wanted to live in a cool loft. I didn't move here because it's a party/bar district. In fact, as a 40something I DID party here "back in the day" and 90% of that has been shut down for years. (Please see previous posts re: changing hospitality scene etc...).

The most recent bar to operate out of 110 Market was Union Sound Hall. They allowed patrons to wander the neighbourhood with open liquor. Patrons urinated on cars and buildings in the area, drank heavily in the local parking lots, vandalized property, got into bloody fights on the streets, smashed bottles everywhere.

The new prospective owners wanted to open a hookah lounge with a dj, street promotion team, gogo dancers etc... and it looked like a shit show all over again. A local resident and WPS member raised the concern that this would be a front for serious drug activity. So, they switched gears and said it would be a restaurant. There's no kitchen. I guess those plans fell through too.

Residents support businesses that enhance the area. There are what... three breweries/distilleries in operation/planning stage within a handful of blocks? Opened with no protest.

Perhaps residents of Excelsior on Waterfront are wealthy and older, but that's only part of the demographic of the area now. I have families, young professionals and retired people in my building. The Exchange is a neighbourhood now.

...and this is why it is always important to hear both sides of a story.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Go to any major city in NA and there's bars and restaurants and people everywhere. People make noise. We talk about wanting more businesses growth downtown, that requires people – unless we want to be like Cleveland and have no people in sight after work. But you can't just pick and choose the type of business (read: people) that you have in a neighbourhood. If you don't like it "loud" – live in the suburbs, no one forced you to move downtown - you made that choice.

It doesn’t seem like a great strategy for downtown renewal, which allegedly depends on increasing the residential population, to tell people that they can’t expect to be able to sleep in their own homes if they do take a chance on Winnipeg’s still dodgy downtown. Plus they’ll be subjected to these little lectures if they complain.

[buzzg]

I'm not saying we should let people wreak havoc, but for every person that wants the Exchange shut down at 11, there's equal if not more that don't, and also live in the area. You can't just filter and pick your ideal utopian businesses – the whole point and goal of having a busy, vibrant urban area is allowing diversity of people and attractions to flourish.

Saying there's no place for clubs and music venues in the Exchange is ludicrous. Especially since many of the clubs were there loooong before these new residents. Maybe the best path forward would be to start planning zones within the Exchange, like say clubs along main, bars on Albert, etc. so there's some rhythm and purpose to the different streets. But no one has come with a solution, only complaints.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Especially since many of the clubs were there loooong before these new residents.

Which club was there before Excelcior that is still there today?

[Urban recluse]

Pubs and restaurants are all I would want.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It doesn’t seem like a great strategy for downtown renewal, which allegedly depends on increasing the residential population, to tell people that they can’t expect to be able to sleep in their own homes if they do take a chance on Winnipeg’s still dodgy downtown. Plus they’ll be subjected to these little lectures if they complain.

I had a friend who lived on Princess Street circa 2009, around the corner from Republic (or whatever it was called then) at Bannatyne and King. The amount of disorder he put up with on weekends between the hours of 12 and 4 am was unbelievable. And he was not wealthy, old, self-entitled, or had an unreasonable expectation of living downtown. Rather, he was an urbanist adult who simply wanted a good night's rest.

A resident of the Exchange posted earlier, something about moving to the Exchange for a number of reasons not related to parties and loud bars and clubs. I can relate: I live in Osborne Village mostly because it’s where I can live in a good apartment within walking distance of my job, plus there are a good number of amenities within easy walking distance. This includes the smaller bars and cafes where I meet friends for drinks. I don’t live here because the Toad, Jekyll and Hyde’s and who knows what other places on Osborne draw hordes of suburban children who think my neighbourhood is a drunken playground.

Residents don’t get to rule every decision made in a neighbourhood, but they should always matter more than the people who only show up once a week to (literally) piss all over the neighbourhood.

This doesn’t mean I defend every neo-temperance leaguer resident who’s opposed to any new licensed establishment: these people are certainly unreasonable, and may wish to reconsider their choice of neighbourhood. However, I don’t know there are as many of these unreasonable types in the Exchange as we think. A gin distillery and tasting room (ie, a bar) was approved at a a council meeting recently, and no one from the Waterfront Drive opposed it. In fact, the Exchange District's residents organization wrote a letter of support.

[esquire]

^ Pretty much that. The days of the Exchange District being a playpen for rowdy suburbanites are over. CanadInns will still happily take that clientele's business.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Pretty much that. The days of the Exchange District being a playpen for rowdy suburbanites are over. CanadInns will still happily take that clientele's business.

Yes. At best, one could take the view that the rowdy nightclubs (which includes everything from the upscale places that used to be in the East Exchange to the Royal Albert and Wellington's) were urban pioneers who ultimately helped bring in the popularity that would displace them. Similar to the starving artists who can no longer easily find loft space for pennies per square foot. It's perhaps unfortunate, but an inevitable outcome of revitalization.

[buzzg]

I think the BIZ needs to create a granular plan for the development in the Exchange, kind of like Downtown BIZ/CV did with the "official downtown" plans for Portage, Graham, etc. Right now there's no focus and things just pop up all over the place.

[Portmanteau]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Which club was there before Excelcior that is still there today?

Going back through my memory, I'd say the only thing remaining on the East side is 441 Main - and being that it's on Main, that barely counts.

Just off the top of my head I'll throw out some locations and their previous names:

114 Market
(Norma Jean's maybe? before my time /Market Ave Cabaret/Mustang Sally's
)
115 Bannatyne
(Marble Club, Riverside Roxy, then Lot115 I think?)

Galpern Building (Phat Daddy's)

All out of the club business for at least 15 years. The last holdout was 140 Bannatyne (Marble Club/Wiseguys) and they struggled for years, changing concepts every year or so.

You can tell how long ago these "glory" days were by how much I had to struggle to remember the names. I was drunk a lot too.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It doesn’t seem like a great strategy for downtown renewal, which allegedly depends on increasing the residential population, to tell people that they can’t expect to be able to sleep in their own homes if they do take a chance on Winnipeg’s still dodgy downtown. Plus they’ll be subjected to these little lectures if they complain.

Yes, you do want noise and vibrancy. Activity during the days begets activity at night, ergo entertainment and retail fuel off each other.

The big complaint about Winnipeg isn't it's safety, it's the boredom and the cold. People live in urban centres because of the many things to do/see/eat.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Yes, you do want noise and vibrancy. Activity during the days begets activity at night, ergo entertainment and retail fuel off each other.

The big complaint about Winnipeg isn't it's safety, it's the boredom and the cold. People live in urban centres because of the many things to do/see/eat.

Vibrancy means a healthy mix of local residents living in the area, out and about with their day-to-day business. It doesn't mean a bunch of wasted 20 year olds from the suburbs showing up for 2 hours a week to smash things, scream at each other in the middle of the night and piss or puke all over everything before heading back to their parents' place in Fort Richmond. The whole club thing is not vibrancy but very much the opposite of it.

[Portmanteau]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/parkade-sale-money-redirected-trees-1.4433005

TL;DR The City of Winnipeg is poised to abandon a six-year-old plan to build a parkade in the east Exchange District and spend most of the money on trees instead.

[drew]

^ honestly no longer a big deal IMO.

Developments in that particular area seem to continue despite the lack of parking, so lets plant some trees! (including in front of my house, where my elm has a big orange marked for death dot on it).

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Portmanteau

You can tell how long ago these "glory" days were by how much I had to struggle to remember the names. I was drunk a lot too.

Haha

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by windypeg

Vibrancy means a healthy mix of local residents living in the area, out and about with their day-to-day business. It doesn't mean a bunch of wasted 20 year olds from the suburbs showing up for 2 hours a week to smash things, scream at each other in the middle of the night and piss or puke all over everything before heading back to their parents' place in Fort Richmond. The whole club thing is not vibrancy but very much the opposite of it.

All big cities have this - both residents, and many different types of nightlife to suit different tastes. Not just expensive restaurants and lounges for people with money to spend that want to go to bed at 11. That's what makes an area vibrant - different options for different people. Do you think NYC, Toronto, Chicago, Vancouver, Seattle or any big bustling city would be the same if they didn't allow "noise" after 11?

The only reason why this rowdiness you speak of is an "issue" here is that there still isn't enough residents to make the streets active on a consistent basis. As soon as more and more people start to live in the area "the drunks" won't be as noticeable. It's the same argument when people complain about homeless people here – there's actually not that many compared to other cities, it's just more obvious because there isn't many other people out.

Originally Posted by Portmanteau

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/parkade-sale-money-redirected-trees-1.4433005

TL;DR The City of Winnipeg is poised to abandon a six-year-old plan to build a parkade in the east Exchange District and spend most of the money on trees instead.

Originally Posted by drew

^ honestly no longer a big deal IMO.

Developments in that particular area seem to continue despite the lack of parking, so lets plant some trees! (including in front of my house, where my elm has a big orange marked for death dot on it).

Yeah, I'm OK with this. If/once the demand is truly there for the need, the private sector will step in. No reason for the city to put money into it.

[oftheMoon]

Originally Posted by Portmanteau

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/parkade-sale-money-redirected-trees-1.4433005

TL;DR The City of Winnipeg is poised to abandon a six-year-old plan to build a parkade in the east Exchange District and spend most of the money on trees instead.

I'm kind of glad they decided this. Put up a parkade north of MB Museum instead and let this lot sit until a proper residential development comes along for it. Prime location considering what's going on in the James/Market area.

[Portmanteau]

Originally Posted by oftheMoon

I'm kind of glad they decided this. Put up a parkade north of MB Museum instead and let this lot sit until a proper residential development comes along for it. Prime location considering what's going on in the James/Market area.

Parkade at the Museum makes much more sense for theatre/concert/museum visitors anyway. If those temporary visitors parked there, there's enough surface parking for residents closer to Waterfront already.

We've struggled with our monthly parking spot - but honestly, it's just a matter of timing. If we arrive home between 6:30 and 9:30 - the lots are full. If we come home after 10, everybody is gone already.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by windypeg

Vibrancy means a healthy mix of local residents living in the area, out and about with their day-to-day business. It doesn't mean a bunch of wasted 20 year olds from the suburbs showing up for 2 hours a week to smash things, scream at each other in the middle of the night and piss or puke all over everything before heading back to their parents' place in Fort Richmond. The whole club thing is not vibrancy but very much the opposite of it.

1+1=2, yep, learned that one a while ago. Thanks though.

Point is that most any vibrant urban setting will have some degree of either nightlife or later-than-normal life, especially when it's the best neighbourhood in a larger downtown.

I'm not an advocate for disorderly mass chaos, but activity, whether a happy, busy pub or even occasionally a night club, or art galleries, good restaurants, etc, things that keep people coming in and out of neighbourhoods contribute to vibrancy. Not "are vibrancy" but contribute to it. They bring some costs and trade-offs along, but urbanites should understand better than suburbanites that you can't come up with a perfect neighbourhood that easily.

Say what you want about annoying suburban kids coming to town to play, but they are among the bored people (night or day) that give the exchange an audience, prop up it's cool businesses, have taken an interest in good coffee and beer sprouting up, and you can bet there wouldn't be an iPhone and without mass-hysteria driven from young people. They have their trade-offs, but young people, the smart and driven ones, the creative yet annoying hipsters, and the annoying party-goers, they're all part of the equation.

Busy places during the day attract busy places at night, and vice versa. You take the good with the bad.

Toronto is fun, but smells like shit. Vancouver is amazing, but some of the cooler neighbourhoods still are littered in poverty and homelessness. New York is the grand daddy of all urban centres except you the only way to get a cab to stop for you is if you're getting stabbed and the cabby decides to keep it real and kick your attackers ass.

Just a couple of pages back we were lamenting how the exchange had gotten too calm and how nimby's in downtown need to get a life.