Rural Commuter Rail

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Charles5

I don't see the "incentive" that you're referring to, once again, this ISN'T FREE. Since you've indicated that you don't understand the business plan here, let me try to summarize what the MOOSE overall plan is.

I was referring to the "88" people who already live in Smiths Fall that you suggest would take a train if there was one. They probably wouldn't buy a new house in the town that they already live in from MOOSE, but if MOOSE did build new developments in the area, then for the rest of Smiths Falls (unless they otherwise pay a fee), for those "88" people, from their perspective, it's a free train.

I realize that anyone who does buy one of these developments would be paying, and that they could be a little annoyed that people are getting free service from what their paying for. All I can say to that is that I don't have anything meaningful to contribute to that topic. I've never denied that there are plenty of questions surrounding the financing of MOOSE's plan, I just don't have anything to contribute on that front.


Most of the criticisms of MOOSE have two parts to them: 1. "Where's this money going to come from?" and 2. Either, "No one will want to use this because it sucks" or "It's going to destroy the city's transit planning!!!"

I agree with #1, but don't have anything to add to the conversation there. On the other hand, I don't agree on every statement that has fallen under #2 and feel that I have something to add.

[OtrainUser]

This is directed at Potvin

Ive been thinking and after taking a look at stage 2 LRT costs which is over 3 billion for an additional 39km of rail MOOSE would need at least 10 billion plus in startup money for 400km of rail.

Lets face it using old tracks for current transportation needs especially if they haven't been used in a long time is never a good idea. The development in the areas that MOOSE wants to serve has to come first before any rail station is put there.

I hope you seriously consider building a bank street tunnel and start with downtown lines first because there is no way you will be able to start making money right away like you expect. The current rails you want to use are old and need to be replaced so its better to start building new lines. Strart with a tunnel under Bank connecting to Rideau - Montreal Road corridor then once those are operating you can start your other 3 lines which buys time for those areas to build up more development which would justify putting a rail station there.

Personally from an investor standpoint I wouldn't be lending you money unless you build those lines under Bank Street, Rideau and Montreal road first

[roger1818]

^^^The days of private railways paying for exorbitantly expensive infrastructure (like tunnels) are long over. I can't see Moose (or any other private entity) paying for this without significant government financial support and I don't see the government offering it until Moose has proven themselves.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I hope you seriously consider building a bank street tunnel and start with downtown lines first because there is no way you will be able to start making money right away like you expect. The current rails you want to use are old and need to be replaced so its better to start building new lines. Strart with a tunnel under Bank connecting to Rideau - Montreal Road corridor then once those are operating you can start your other 3 lines which buys time for those areas to build up more development which would justify putting a rail station there.

Personally from an investor standpoint I wouldn't be lending you money unless you build those lines under Bank Street, Rideau and Montreal road first

Moose does not really want to own or build track. It just wants the right to use others' track and simply pay a "fair rate", much like independent ISPs use Rogers or Bell infrastructure to provide internet to their customers. Ideally, it wants municipalities (or companies) to maintain tracks like they do roads, and just have the right to use them.

Moose also HAS to run an interprovincial line to have the Constitution Act of 1867 on its side and give it the privilege of using those tracks by arguing that it is doing it for the "general Advantage of Canada"

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Moose does not really want to own or build track. It just wants the right to use others' track and simply pay a "fair rate", much like independent ISPs use Rogers or Bell infrastructure to provide internet to their customers. Ideally, it wants municipalities (or companies) to maintain tracks like they do roads, and just have the right to use them.

Moose also HAS to run an interprovincial line to have the Constitution Act of 1867 on its side and give it the privilege of using those tracks by arguing that it is doing it for the "general Advantage of Canada"

The problem with their plan the way I see it is what i pointed out in my post. The railroad tracks need to be replaced or repaired and no one i have seen is willing to repair or replace the lines. It would be better for MOOSE to own the line they want to operate on. Ok some of the tracks that are currently used by other companies that MOOSE wants to use is what they can get away with not owning but the rest they will have to own and if they don't want to then that's admitting that their plan isn't viable.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Moose also HAS to run an interprovincial line to have the Constitution Act of 1867 on its side and give it the privilege of using those tracks by arguing that it is doing it for the "general Advantage of Canada"

The Declaratory Power does not require an interprovincaial work or undertaking. As I think I said in an earlier power, they could pass a law to declare your garden shed to be to the "General Advantage of Canada" (whether a court would hold that up would be another story).

I'm not really clear why they have an obsession with being federally regulated. They seem to perceive that the federal government would be more friendly to their venture, but they haven't really explained why.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not really clear why they have an obsession with being federally regulated. They seem to perceive that the federal government would be more friendly to their venture, but they haven't really explained why.

Their network would be interprovincial, so that'd probably be why.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Their network would be interprovincial, so that'd probably be why.

But it doesn't really help to be interprovincial. In fact it is a serious hindrance because the necessity to kick the o-train off its tracks is a huge obstacle to its relationship with local municipalities. They have set themselves up as an adversary rather than a potential partner.

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not really clear why they have an obsession with being federally regulated.

I think that they truly believe that they will have more leverage as a federally regulated railway because they can then claim that they have access rights under the Constitution Act. That is also why they have been so aggressive at launching CTA requests/challenges and Competition Bureau submissions for the POW Bridge, the Lachute Subdivision and the Maniwaki Subdivision.

"This proposed inter-provincial undertaking invokes Section 92(10)(a) of the Constitution of Canada as a railway within the legislative authority of Parliament. Also the planned use of the Prince of Wales Bridge, which Parliament has declared to be “for the general advantage of Canada”, and other sections of the Ellwood Subdivision and the Lachute Subdivision, invoke Section 92(10)(c) of the Constitution as a railway within the legislative authority of Parliament." (pg 1-2)
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-content/up..._CertificateOfFitness_2016-11-25bPDF.pdf


To be honest, I'm not even sure why the current MOOSE consortium has to be regulated at all. If you read their own documentation

"The consortium is not itself the operator of rail services, and it need not own the corridors or tracks. Instead, apportionment conditions in the consortium agreement assemble the funds to pay one or more train operators, and to lease running rights on tracks." (pg 10)
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-content/up...opertyPoweredRailModel_2017-03-05PDF.pdf

Or see what Joseph Potvin has more recently posted:

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

...the multi-entity MOOSE Consortium would include one or more railway companies. ... Naturally the people involved must have appropriate experience and professional credentials.

And I think I've read something similar in their safety or operations plans as well.

Anyway, the current consortium has no intention of actually operating a railway from what I see. They either plan on contracting this out to a certified operator, or hope to bring a certified operator into the consortium in the future.
In both of these scenarios these operators would have their own certificate of fitness I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) and thus the current MOOSE wouldn't need one.

As I said, I think they are purely trying to gain leverage to invoke the Constitution Act.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Declaratory Power does not require an interprovincaial work or undertaking. As I think I said in an earlier power, they could pass a law to declare your garden shed to be to the "General Advantage of Canada" (whether a court would hold that up would be another story).

I'm not really clear why they have an obsession with being federally regulated. They seem to perceive that the federal government would be more friendly to their venture, but they haven't really explained why.

There's some theory that the courts would strike down almost any use of the declaratory power (along with the powers of reservation and disallowance), because it's been unused for so long that it's "died by convention". In any case, I don't think anyone thinks its realistic for the federal government would activate this power for the first time in generations on behalf of Moose.

Heck.. if the federal government is willing to go to the ends of the constitutional earth to get Moose access to private track whenever it wants... why the heck would it have not already done so for GO or VIA? There's a much much much bigger potential political award for that, and they're still unwilling to do it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Charles5

I think that they truly believe that they will have more leverage as a federally regulated railway because they can then claim that they have access rights under the Constitution Act. That is also why they have been so aggressive at launching CTA requests/challenges and Competition Bureau submissions for the POW Bridge, the Lachute Subdivision and the Maniwaki Subdivision.

I don't think either level of government would do what Moose wants, but I don't see why Moose would perceive the federal government would be more amenable.

The province could just drop a line in any bill requiring the City of Ottawa to let Moose use the track - no Senate, no constitutional crisis, no embarrassing defeats at the Supreme Court.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The province could just drop a line in any bill requiring the City of Ottawa to let Moose use the track - no Senate, no constitutional crisis, no embarrassing defeats at the Supreme Court.

Although, since the feds are contributing towards the Trillium Line upgrades, they might have something to say about the Province forcing the city to hand it over to Moose.

I don't see Moose seeing this as either a Provincial or Federal political battle, but instead a regulatory one. They believe that they have found a loophole and the law is on their side. Now locally they do see it as a political battle as they are fighting the city and hope, when the time comes, to win over popular opinion.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But it doesn't really help to be interprovincial. In fact it is a serious hindrance because the necessity to kick the o-train off its tracks is a huge obstacle to its relationship with local municipalities. They have set themselves up as an adversary rather than a potential partner.

They don't even need the PoW bridge to become interprovincial since they could just put tracks back on the bridge between Fitzroy and Pontiac. They really want it though, for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by Charles5

I think that they truly believe that they will have more leverage as a federally regulated railway because they can then claim that they have access rights under the Constitution Act. That is also why they have been so aggressive at launching CTA requests/challenges and Competition Bureau submissions for the POW Bridge, the Lachute Subdivision and the Maniwaki Subdivision.

I think it'd be more accurate to say that they have to be federally regulated since they want to be interprovincial, and then because of that they'd also be able to try and leverage the constitution.

You'd probably have a hard time trying to argue why MOOSE shouldn't be interested in putting together an interprovincial railway.

Originally Posted by Charles5

To be honest, I'm not even sure why the current MOOSE consortium has to be regulated at all. If you read their own documentation

"The consortium is not itself the operator of rail services, and it need not own the corridors or tracks. Instead, apportionment conditions in the consortium agreement assemble the funds to pay one or more train operators, and to lease running rights on tracks." (pg 10)
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-conten...7-03-05PDF.pdf

Or see what Joseph Potvin has more recently posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
...the multi-entity MOOSE Consortium would include one or more railway companies. ... Naturally the people involved must have appropriate experience and professional credentials.
And I think I've read something similar in their safety or operations plans as well.

Anyway, the current consortium has no intention of actually operating a railway from what I see. They either plan on contracting this out to a certified operator, or hope to bring a certified operator into the consortium in the future.
In both of these scenarios these operators would have their own certificate of fitness I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) and thus the current MOOSE wouldn't need one.

What MOOSE is trying to do is more or less the direct equivalent to what GO does. They own their stations, and their vehicles, but they don't own most of the rails they use, and their trains are operated by Bombardier.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

You'd probably have a hard time trying to argue why MOOSE shouldn't be interested in putting together an interprovincial railway.

For exactly the reason I just said. The likelyhood of the federal government invoking the declaratory power is zero. The likelyhood of the CTA ordering the o-train off its own tracks is extremely low. Moose's confrontational approach has been a failure, which is why they have made no real progress in the last 6 years. If they actually want to do something they have to find a more conciliatory approach, which means they have to stop obsessing over the POW Bridge.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

What MOOSE is trying to do is more or less the direct equivalent to what GO does. They own their stations, and their vehicles, but they don't own most of the rails they use, and their trains are operated by Bombardier.

Key differences include:
1. All of GO's capital and part of its operating costs are funded by governments.
2. GO serves large cities with hundreds of thousands of people, not tiny rural villages.
3. GO owns a significant amount of track
4. For track that GO doesn't own it negotiates with existing railways for access to their track, it doesn't try to get the CTA to force companies to let them use the track (again, a conciliatory rather than confrontational approach).
5. GO does not operate a pay-what-you-want fare structure

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

They don't even need the PoW bridge to become interprovincial since they could just put tracks back on the bridge between Fitzroy and Pontiac.

That is actually in their plan. They could also extend beyond Alexandria to Saint-Polycarpe, QC (or anywhere just across the boarder), but that is getting a bit far from Ottawa.

What MOOSE is trying to do is more or less the direct equivalent to what GO does. They own their stations, and their vehicles, but they don't own most of the rails they use, and their trains are operated by Bombardier.

Except Metrolinx now owns 80% of the GO Train corridor network.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/corridorownership/corridor_ownership.aspx

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

They believe that they have found a loophole and the law is on their side.

There is no loophole. The law is not on their side. Their business plan depends on the federal government using obscure powers that they have no incentive to use (and lots of incentive not to).

If I wanted to open a restaurant and I wanted a site McDonalds currently owns, the city has the legal power to expropriate the land and sell it to me. That doesn't make it a loophole, it doesn't mean the law is on my side, and it is certainly not something the city would do.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is no loophole.

I never said there is one. I said they believe there is one.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

For exactly the reason I just said. The likelyhood of the federal government invoking the declaratory power is zero.

From a business perspective, you'd probably have a hard time trying to argue why MOOSE shouldn't be interested in putting together an interprovincial railway.

The likelyhood of the CTA ordering the o-train off its own tracks is extremely low.

For the umpteenth time, no one can "order" the O-Train off its own tracks.

Moose's confrontational approach has been a failure, which is why they have made no real progress in the last 6 years. If they actually want to do something they have to find a more conciliatory approach, which means they have to stop obsessing over the POW Bridge.

Mr. Potvin would likely disagree with that view.
MOOSE has been pretty diplomatic over the last 6 years, and it wasn't really until people started tearing up tracks under potentially unlawful circumstances that MOOSE went to the CTA. I believe I recall Mr. Potvin himself stating that they never tried to use any constitutional "magic" to try and stop CN from tearing up their tracks from the Beachburg subdivision beacause they followed the law.

Key differences include:
1. All of GO's capital and part of its operating costs are funded by governments.
2. GO serves large cities with hundreds of thousands of people, not tiny rural villages.
3. GO owns a significant amount of track
4. For track that GO doesn't own it negotiates with existing railways for access to their track, it doesn't try to get the CTA to force companies to let them use the track (again, a conciliatory rather than confrontational approach).
5. GO does not operate a pay-what-you-want fare structure

From an operational point of view, there are still lots of similarities between GO and MOOSE. (Bombardier operating the vehicles, as well as negotiating to use track that they don't own).
I don't recall ever hearing about MOOSE trying to kick VIA off its rails just so that they can use it. They'd certainly negotiate with them.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is actually in their plan. They could also extend beyond Alexandria to Saint-Polycarpe, QC (or anywhere just across the boarder), but that is getting a bit far from Ottawa.

My point is that they could become an interprovincial railway regardless.

Except Metrolinx now owns 80% of the GO Train corridor network.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/corridorownership/corridor_ownership.aspx

My mistake

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

For the umpteenth time, no one can "order" the O-Train off its own tracks.

That is the core of Moose's business plan. Moose wants the CTA to order the the city to let Moose use its tracks. The Trillium line tracks operate at capacity, there is no room to add another 6 Moose trains per hour. Moose has not identified any plan to add capacity to the trillium line.