Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[recurrence]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Actual reality check: Vancouver has the traffic problems of cities that are three times its size, and the problems are almost entirely due to infrastructure neglect caused by failed social engineering. Cities of 2.5 million (i.e. NOT a big city) shouldn't have the issues we have.

The size of the city is less relevant than its' density. In particular, downtown doesn't just deal with some of the highest density neighbourhoods in North America, but also water along most of its' perimeter.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I went car-free for five years and it was hell on earth with unbearably long commutes, despite living near the seabus and working downtown. So it's more about you being an idealogue in Winnipeg and not knowing what you're talking about while I have first hand experience on a daily basis over the last few decades.

The seabus takes 10 minutes to cross, and operates every 15 minutes during peak times. If you truly live "near the seabus" and work "downtown", there's no way your commutes can take 60 minutes or more, as you say. It sounds like you are exaggerating in one or more areas.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

To be fair, Seattle has worse traffic than we do. It's partially a geography problem.

Why are we comparing with a city in a country where the general consensus is that driving is a God-given right and that taking the transit is only for the poor or Third World immigrants. The choices taken by the planners and its population lead to their current traffic situation. And despite the city spending way way more on car-infrastructure than what we spend here in Vancouver, they still have bad traffic congestions.

With that said, the situation in Vancouver is still pretty dire.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by goldenboi

Would you mind elaborating on this? Why would induced demand apply to the construction of new roadways but not work in the opposite direction? Are you suggesting that people cannot decide to take other forms of transportation?

I'm suggesting that "no road = no drivers" is pretty simplistic (almost Trump-like) thinking. If you want to replace the car, you need to replace the convenience that the car provides; people can, but will not decide to take alternatives if it means a slower commute.

The best way to compensate for the removal would be east-west or downtown rapid transit, or at least a 10-minute frequent bus network. None of those are happening in the near future.

Originally Posted by goldenboi

Because the statistics in Vancouver and other cities across the world would seem to say otherwise. The amount of people driving in this city has been steadily decreasing over the past few years.

Yup. And I'd be interested to see if the total number of trips is the same, or decreasing as well - meaning that instead of switching, some drivers just opt to stay at home if they can. It's not as easy to get around Vancouver as it is Winnipeg.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The seabus takes 10 minutes to cross, and operates every 15 minutes during peak times. If you truly live "near the seabus" and work "downtown", there's no way your commutes can take 60 minutes or more, as you say. It sounds like you are exaggerating in one or more areas.

But if you miss the SeaBus, that's a 15 minute wait - I just did exactly that last Saturday.

So 25 minutes for the SeaBus, 10 getting on/off the SkyTrain, 5 walking to the bus stop, 5-10 waiting for the bus, 10-20 crawling through downtown. It's technically possible.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

To be fair, Seattle has worse traffic than we do. It's partially a geography problem.

To be fair, seattle has more roads and more space so it seems like it has worse traffic.....however I-5, SR520, and I-90 traffic is similar to Vancouvers BC99, TCH1 and BC99. Not to mention Seattle has twice the area and more than half the population density. But to its credit..its rush hours are less than Vancouver and it doesnt have the obstacles of waterfront.

Yes Vancouver has neglected its auto infrastructure, but even if it were to overcome its shortcomings, new roads induce more SOV traffic. Miami is the worst example. All roads are now being widened but by the time they are done with construction......traffic is no better than it is before the construction. Road construction only exists to keep people/corporations who collect the tolls employed.

That being said i still would like to see a tunnel bypass downtown.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

But if you miss the SeaBus, that's a 15 minute wait - I just did exactly that last Saturday.

So 25 minutes for the SeaBus, 10 getting on/off the SkyTrain, 5 walking to the bus stop, 5-10 waiting for the bus, 10-20 crawling through downtown. It's technically possible.

Yep and make that 30 minutes wait if you don't work 9-5 Monday to Friday. Then add in buses not showing up on time, or at all, missing the seabus connection on both sides most of the time, the long walk to/from waterfront station, the wait to get on skytrains... I live on 3rd street and work in south downtown, not near the skytrain. 10km as the crow flies, 20 minutes by car across either bridge in good traffic (I leave before rush hour), or at least an hour by transit.

The cognitive dissonance is so high with people in the downtown bubble that the first reaction is to accuse me of lying, wow.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Yep and make that 30 minutes wait if you don't work 9-5 Monday to Friday. Then add in buses not showing up on time, or at all, missing the seabus connection on both sides most of the time, the long walk to/from waterfront station, the wait to get on skytrains... I live on 3rd street and work in south downtown, not near the skytrain. 10km as the crow flies, 20 minutes by car across either bridge in good traffic (I leave before rush hour), or at least an hour by transit.

The cognitive dissonance is so high with people in the downtown bubble that the first reaction is to accuse me of lying, wow.

So you're comparing worst case scenario transit vs. best case scenario driving. Got it.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So you're comparing worst case scenario transit vs. best case scenario driving. Got it.

No I'm comparing my ACTUAL COMMUTING OPTIONS IN REAL LIFE right now. It takes me 20 minutes by car and over an hour by transit when I have to be at work by 7am. Missed connections are a daily thing. Why do you deny reality? Maybe instead you should adjust your point of view to match reality?

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

To be fair, Seattle has worse traffic than we do. It's partially a geography problem.

No doubt geography makes it more challenging but Seattle-Tacoma has 4.6 million people plus lots of insane people who commute in from the far flung exurbs. They also have terrible transit.

If you had road infrastructure like Seattle in Vancouver and also decently funded skytrain/bus service there would be no major issues.

[GenWhy?]

There's an issue now? What's the issue besides rush hour? How does an elevated road for 3 city blocks "alleviate traffic", how does it make it better? This is a very interesting conversation.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Pinion

No I'm comparing my ACTUAL COMMUTING OPTIONS IN REAL LIFE right now. It takes me 20 minutes by car and over an hour by transit when I have to be at work by 7am. Missed connections are a daily thing. Why do you deny reality? Maybe instead you should adjust your point of view to match reality?

Don't mean to pick on you but one would expect a big advantage for off-peak road trips versus off-peak transit trips. I wouldn't doubt taking the car would be faster if you work outside of rush hour or weekends.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

To be fair, seattle has more roads and more space so it seems like it has worse traffic.....however I-5, SR520, and I-90 traffic is similar to Vancouvers BC99, TCH1 and BC99. Not to mention Seattle has twice the area and more than half the population density. But to its credit..its rush hours are less than Vancouver and it doesnt have the obstacles of waterfront.

Yes Vancouver has neglected its auto infrastructure, but even if it were to overcome its shortcomings, new roads induce more SOV traffic. Miami is the worst example. All roads are now being widened but by the time they are done with construction......traffic is no better than it is before the construction. Road construction only exists to keep people/corporations who collect the tolls employed.

That being said i still would like to see a tunnel bypass downtown.

Building roads is tricky, because building too many (and too wide) can induce demand, but on the flip side building too few (especially connections over water) can unnecessary choke a region. Metro Vancouver is still on the underbuilt side. The SFPR should be full freeway standard, the 99 needs to be upgraded, and several other key connections need to be built. But, at the same time our transit also needs to expand and such an upgraded highway system should become distance based tolled.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Don't mean to pick on you but one would expect a big advantage for off-peak road trips versus off-peak transit trips. I wouldn't doubt taking the car would be faster if you work outside of rush hour or weekends.

Yes, but I choose to work those hours because Vancouver infrastructure is so terrible. I had to quit a job that started at 4pm because I couldn't get there in any reliable time.

Let's stop minimizing this - metro Vancouver infrastructure is a joke for most of the city, and most regular working people.

Originally Posted by recurrence

The size of the city is less relevant than its' density. In particular, downtown doesn't just deal with some of the highest density neighbourhoods in North America, but also water along most of its' perimeter.

Right, but Vancouver was not densely populated 20 years ago and has not made significant improvements to its road infrastructure in most parts of the metro while allowing condo tower after condo tower to be built. And now they want to tear down good infrastructure and continue to make things worse, not even status quo. That's the problem.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Actual reality check: Vancouver has the traffic problems of cities that are three times its size, and the problems are almost entirely due to infrastructure neglect caused by failed social engineering. Cities of 2.5 million (i.e. NOT a big city) shouldn't have the issues we have.



I went car-free for five years and it was hell on earth with unbearably long commutes, despite living near the seabus and working downtown. So it's more about you being an idealogue in Winnipeg and not knowing what you're talking about while I have first hand experience on a daily basis over the last few decades.

I don't think there is a city in the world that doesn't have a 'traffic problem'. Having lived in other cities I can definitely tell that Vancouver is far from the worst. Montreal and Toronto in my experience are definitely worse. Also, in terms of transit infrastructure, the region punches above its weight despite it still not being enough. We have the longest rapid transit network and Metro Vancouver is far smaller than the GTA or Greater Montreal in population.

[Orcair]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

I don't think there is a city in the world that doesn't have a 'traffic problem'. Having lived in other cities I can definitely tell that Vancouver is far from the worst. Montreal and Toronto in my experience are definitely worse. Also, in terms of transit infrastructure, the region punches above its weight despite it still not being enough. We have the longest rapid transit network and Metro Vancouver is far smaller than the GTA or Greater Montreal in population.

Can't agree more! Don't even get me started on getting to the airport in MTL from Downtown anywhere near rush hour. The buses always get detoured and take up to 1.5 hours from Réné-Levesque O. The Canada Line is brilliant in comparison!

(and yes I know we are supposed to get the REM by 2021 to YUL but I can't see it being on time )

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

To be fair, seattle has more roads and more space so it seems like it has worse traffic.....however I-5, SR520, and I-90 traffic is similar to Vancouvers BC99, TCH1 and BC99. Not to mention Seattle has twice the area and more than half the population density. But to its credit..its rush hours are less than Vancouver and it doesnt have the obstacles of waterfront.

Yes Vancouver has neglected its auto infrastructure, but even if it were to overcome its shortcomings, new roads induce more SOV traffic. Miami is the worst example. All roads are now being widened but by the time they are done with construction......traffic is no better than it is before the construction. Road construction only exists to keep people/corporations who collect the tolls employed.

That being said i still would like to see a tunnel bypass downtown.

I guess the counter point to my own arguement is that Seattle is spending something like $54B on transit in their current capital plans.

We should probably be doing something of almost similar scale.

[goldenboi]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The best way to compensate for the removal would be east-west or downtown rapid transit, or at least a 10-minute frequent bus network. None of those are happening in the near future.

Yup. And I'd be interested to see if the total number of trips is the same, or decreasing as well - meaning that instead of switching, some drivers just opt to stay at home if they can. It's not as easy to get around Vancouver as it is Winnipeg.

As I already said before, I agree with your first point. Hastings Line needs to be built soon. I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Things can change fast. There is a decent chance that the federal government might start spending more on transportation.

As for your second point, the total number of trips has actually increased, while the percentage of car trips has decreased. More people are deciding to bike or take transit. Have you read the 2014 transportation report? I highly recommend that you do.

Winnipeg actually has great traffic. Downtown is almost never gridlocked, even during rush hour. Although people still think that we have a traffic problem. Just goes to show that no matter how bad the problem is, people will always complain.

By the way, Pinion seems to think that just because I mostly post on the Winnipeg page, that I have no first-hand experience in Vancouver. For your information I have lived in both cities, and I am moving back to Vancouver shortly. Look forward to seeing lots more of me

P.s. the winnipeg page is much friendlier and less hostile than the vancouver page...

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by goldenboi

By the way, Pinion seems to think that just because I mostly post on the Winnipeg page, that I have no first-hand experience in Vancouver. For your information I have lived in both cities, and I am moving back to Vancouver shortly. Look forward to seeing lots more of me

P.s. the winnipeg page is much friendlier and less hostile than the vancouver page...

don't let it scare you off. welcome to vancity.

FWIW, along with some locals with varying levels of satisfaction here, for some reason we have people who report they are from places like paris and prague, seem not to be here a lot, but have a lot of opinion about vancouver and post on a regular basis. i think you'll be right at home on the forum whether in MB or BC....

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by goldenboi

As I already said before, I agree with your first point. Hastings Line needs to be built soon. I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Things can change fast. There is a decent chance that the federal government might start spending more on transportation.

Ah, missed the second post.

As for the feds, they "might" do a lot of things - whether they actually will, instead of talking about it, is up for debate. If they don't, then we're reducing a major artery into downtown without any good alternatives to switch to, which isn't a very good idea.

Originally Posted by goldenboi

Have you read the 2014 transportation report? I highly recommend that you do.

Most of it; also note how roughly half of all trips are still with motor vehicles. Speaking as one of those transit users, if we take away too much roadspace and have drivers stuck in traffic, that means my bus is stuck in traffic as well.

Originally Posted by goldenboi

Winnipeg actually has great traffic. Downtown is almost never gridlocked, even during rush hour. Although people still think that we have a traffic problem. Just goes to show that no matter how bad the problem is, people will always complain.

Then by all means, demolish away! Problem with Vancouver is that there's bumper-to-bumper gridlock on a near-constant basis, plus a City Council with an axe to grind against motor traffic.

Originally Posted by goldenboi

By the way, Pinion seems to think that just because I mostly post on the Winnipeg page, that I have no first-hand experience in Vancouver. For your information I have lived in both cities, and I am moving back to Vancouver shortly. Look forward to seeing lots more of me

P.s. the winnipeg page is much friendlier and less hostile than the vancouver page...

Right. It helps that the Winnipeg page generally has less controversial planning decisions, and less judgemental outsiders who've never been there. Sorry for — you as one.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Yep and make that 30 minutes wait if you don't work 9-5 Monday to Friday. Then add in buses not showing up on time, or at all, missing the seabus connection on both sides most of the time, the long walk to/from waterfront station, the wait to get on skytrains... I live on 3rd street and work in south downtown, not near the skytrain. 10km as the crow flies, 20 minutes by car across either bridge in good traffic (I leave before rush hour), or at least an hour by transit.

The cognitive dissonance is so high with people in the downtown bubble that the first reaction is to accuse me of lying, wow.

For the past 5 years I have commuted by Transit from Lynn Valley to UBC and I have never missed a Seabus due to the bus being late when I am not travelling between 2pm and 4pm. Betweeen 2pm and 4pm however it misses it every single time. It misses it so consistently that if I do need to get downtown at that time, I cycle - and often times cycling gets me to the Seabus faster than the bus does.

I too work in downtown Vancouver along English Bay, and I know exactly the pain you feel when trying to get somewhere for 4pm. However, when getting somewhere at 7pm, the system in my experience works reliably. From doorstep to doorstep it would take me about 55min at that time in the morning. I would expect 45min to the equivalent from 3rd.

Do you get parking downtown for your work? Does that influence your decision to drive (say if you didn't have work paid parking would you still drive?) Also 3rd to south downtown is 5-7km max as the crow flies?