Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I do not.

Wow... I'm very interested to hear your explanation of this apparent contradiction to all your other posts.

I'm trying to support the position of more investment in core transit rather than endless core tax dollars going to the suburbs..

[waterloowarrior]

here are the BRT plans from 2010
staff report
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycou...-0156%20WTway%20Tfox%20to%20Fernbank.htm



functional design plans
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycou...way%20Tfox%20to%20Fernbank%20Doc%201.pdf

The plan has been for a grade-separated transitway extension, with the exception of at-grade crossings south of Hazeldean (median transitway) and a couple more at grade-crossings at Didsbury and near Campeau Station.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Wow... I'm very interested to hear your explanation of this apparent contradiction to all your other posts.

What's the contradiction?

I said that it wasn't excessive to have twenty LRT stops from Kanata to downtown. It isn't excessive.

I'm trying to support the position of more investment in core transit rather than endless core tax dollars going to the suburbs..

That is an entirely separate question from whether the number of stops on the future Kanata line is too many.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

That is an entirely separate question from whether the number of stops on the future Kanata line is too many.

I think the question was about the length of the line, not the density of the stops. I don't think anyone on here is suggesting we delete stops mid route but rather questioning the sanity of extending the line beyond Kanata. I have said it before, but it is very much like the Peter Principle where we are taking something good and extending it to the point where it will no longer be useful.

[1overcosc]

Even with two dozen stops the average travel time from Hazeldean to downtown would be pretty quick. It's a grade separated line, and the average stop spacing for pretty much the entire route is around a kilometre.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Even with two dozen stops the average travel time from Hazeldean to downtown would be pretty quick. It's a grade separated line, and the average stop spacing for pretty much the entire route is around a kilometre.

Lets do the math. It would be about 25 km from Hazeldean to Lyon. While the top speed of the Citadis Spirit is 100km/h, I don't think it will get above 80km per hour except in the Greenbelt. So that is:

21 km / 80 km/h = 0.2625 h = 15.75 min
4 km / 100 km/h = 0.04 h = 2.4 min

So that would be 18 minutes without any stops.

If you add an average of 1 minute delay for each stop to slow down, wait and speed up, that is 20 minutes extra for 20 stops.

As a result, the total time will be about 38 minutes. Exactly the same as the 261 currently takes to go from HUNTMAR / HAZELDEAN - (1104) to SLATER / KENT - (3006) according to the travel planner.

LRT will be great in central Ottawa, but it becomes progressively less effective the further you get from downtown because of the frequent stops. A combination of local buses, connexion buses and park and rides would be just as effective outside of the greenbelt (since most people will need to transfer anyway) and cost a lot less.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Lets do the math. It would be about 25 km from Hazeldean to Lyon. While the top speed of the Citadis Spirit is 100km/h, I don't think it will get above 80km per hour except in the Greenbelt. So that is:

21 km / 80 km/h = 0.2625 h = 15.75 min
4 km / 100 km/h = 0.04 h = 2.4 min

So that would be 18 minutes without any stops.

If you add an average of 1 minute delay for each stop to slow down, wait and speed up, that is 20 minutes extra for 20 stops.

As a result, the total time will be about 38 minutes. Exactly the same as the 261 currently takes to go from HUNTMAR / HAZELDEAN - (1104) to SLATER / KENT - (3006) according to the travel planner.

LRT will be great in central Ottawa, but it becomes progressively less effective the further you get from downtown because of the frequent stops. A combination of local buses, connexion buses and park and rides would be just as effective outside of the greenbelt (since most people will need to transfer anyway) and cost a lot less.

I do think they are pushing the limit of an effective LRT length. However, consider that much of the traffic generated in Kanata-Stittsville does not go downtown. In fact, based on the 2011 TRANS Survey (linked below) only 14% combined go to Ottawa Centre or Ottawa Inner Area, while 54% are within Kanata-Stittsville, 9% go to Bayshore area, 6% go to Merivale, and 4% go to Ottawa West.

http://www.ncr-trans-rcn.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/500-KanataStittsville-2011.pdf

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Even with two dozen stops the average travel time from Hazeldean to downtown would be pretty quick. It's a grade separated line, and the average stop spacing for pretty much the entire route is around a kilometre.

As a point of comparison, the Bloor-Danforth line in Toronto is 26km and 31 stops. Downtown is about the midpoint on that line.

If the Confederation line is extended just to Kanata, it will be pushing 46km and 40 stops...

Just sayin...

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

As a point of comparison, the Bloor-Danforth line in Toronto is 26km and 31 stops. Downtown is about the midpoint on that line.

If the Confederation line is extended just to Kanata, it will be pushing 46km and 40 stops...

I think there is a general consensus that the TTC has been underfunded and under developed, so it isn't much of an argument.

Also not a valid argument but an interesting point of comparison; London's Piccadilly line is 71 km long and has 53 stations, but that includes a split, it is part of a massive underground network and is backed up by commuter rail.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Lets do the math. It would be about 25 km from Hazeldean to Lyon. While the top speed of the Citadis Spirit is 100km/h, I don't think it will get above 80km per hour except in the Greenbelt. So that is:

21 km / 80 km/h = 0.2625 h = 15.75 min
4 km / 100 km/h = 0.04 h = 2.4 min

So that would be 18 minutes without any stops.

If you add an average of 1 minute delay for each stop to slow down, wait and speed up, that is 20 minutes extra for 20 stops.

As a result, the total time will be about 38 minutes. Exactly the same as the 261 currently takes to go from HUNTMAR / HAZELDEAN - (1104) to SLATER / KENT - (3006) according to the travel planner.

LRT will be great in central Ottawa, but it becomes progressively less effective the further you get from downtown because of the frequent stops. A combination of local buses, connexion buses and park and rides would be just as effective outside of the greenbelt (since most people will need to transfer anyway) and cost a lot less.

The average time added per stop is about 35-40 seconds, not 1 minute, at most stations. The city has confirmed dwell times will be between 7 and 20 seconds depending on how busy the station is and with automated braking and electric acceleration the slowdown/speedup time is pretty short.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The average time added per stop is about 35-40 seconds, not 1 minute, at most stations. The city has confirmed dwell times will be between 7 and 20 seconds depending on how busy the station is and with automated braking and electric acceleration the slowdown/speedup time is pretty short.

The slowdown/speedup time has to be limited to not cause people standing to fall over.

If you look at Skytrain in Vancouver as a comparison, King George to Burrard is about 25 km and has 17 stations between the two. I don't know what the dwell time is at the stations, but it is likely similar. The total travel time between those two stations is 38 minutes, exactly the same as my calculation. Granted the Skytrain has a top speed of 80km/h, but I don't think we will get above that very often and the few times we do, makes up for the extra stations on the route.

[lrt's friend]

So it will take over an hour to get from Trim Road to Stittsville. We should have been making allowances for express trains given the extreme length of this route.

In absence of traffic tie-ups, you can probably drive that in half that time.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So it will take over an hour to get from Trim Road to Stittsville. We should have been making allowances for express trains given the extreme length of this route.

Although, I can't imagine who would take it from end to end like that.

In absence of traffic tie-ups, you can probably drive that in half that time.

For sure. Even going downtown, you can drive from Stittsville in about 20 min (depending where you are going) outside of peak periods.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Although, I can't imagine who would take it from end to end like that.



For sure. Even going downtown, you can drive from Stittsville in about 20 min (depending where you are going) outside of peak periods.

We keep wanting to put federal offices out in the boondocks. There has discussion for years of placing a federal department in Orleans and not on LRT to boot.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

here are the BRT plans from 2010
staff report
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycou...-0156%20WTway%20Tfox%20to%20Fernbank.htm



functional design plans
http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycou...way%20Tfox%20to%20Fernbank%20Doc%201.pdf

The plan has been for a grade-separated transitway extension, with the exception of at-grade crossings south of Hazeldean (median transitway) and a couple more at grade-crossings at Didsbury and near Campeau Station.

In time, that might make a good bus route, but we will have LRT in the middle, oops, now two transfers. And typical frequent service only in peak periods, half hourly in the day, hourly or no service in the evening and weekends, ie nobody will use it except a few commuters.

[Kitchissippi]

If you can go from Trim Road to Stittsville on one fare it would be a cheap way to go. An average compact car does 6 to 8 litres per 100k and it would take over $4 of gas plus wear-and-tear/depreciation on your vehicle to cover that distance. Put wifi on the trains so people can put in some work time or leisure browsing while commuting and the option becomes quite attractive.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We keep wanting to put federal offices out in the boondocks. There has discussion for years of placing a federal department in Orleans and not on LRT to boot.

"We" = parochial MP's in this case, i think.

Most civil servants, frankly, would rather be downtown or at least downtownish.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Although, I can't imagine who would take it from end to end like that.

High Highschoolers on the weekend?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If you can go from Trim Road to Stittsville on one fare it would be a cheap way to go. An average compact car does 6 to 8 litres per 100k and it would take over $4 of gas plus wear-and-tear/depreciation on your vehicle to cover that distance. Put wifi on the trains so people can put in some work time or leisure browsing while commuting and the option becomes quite attractive.

The coming electrification of cars threatens to significantly reduce this figure.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

ie nobody will use it except a few commuters.

That's the thing. If you look at routes 61-64, even off peak they are decently used to Eagleson/Terry Fox but ridership rapidly drops beyond those stations. While extending LRT beyond Terry Fox might have some effect on ridership, I can't see it making a huge difference as most people will still need to either transfer to/from an infrequent route or drive to a P&R. In some cases it could make things worse if the tail end of the Stittsville rapid routes are converted to infrequent locals.