HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #221  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2017, 3:59 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
You would also need to double track the Sawmill Creek bridge
Presumably Sawmill Creek bridge would also need to be rebuild for grade separation with Via, regardless of which approach is used.

Quote:
but of course they should re-build all bridges for double track.
I said this section (Walkley to Confederation/Mooney's Bay), not the entire line. I think the Airport Parkway overpass is wide enough but Walkley and Heron aren't.

Quote:
(including Via, really)
It would be foolish if the new Via bridge they are building (we assume) doesn't support double track for both lines.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #222  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2017, 4:04 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I said this section (Walkley to Confederation/Mooney's Bay), not the entire line. I think the Airport Parkway overpass is wide enough but Walkley and Heron aren't.
Ya, I meant that any bridge that gets re-built will be double track. I know they are not planning on re-building Heron or Walkley (although I really think Walkley should be a priority).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #223  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2017, 8:10 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 2,680
This perhaps belongs in a Transit Fantasies thread, but it might not be so far fetched. There is definite desire to grade separate the Elwood Junction, where the O-Train, Trillium Line, crosses the VIA track; and there is a desire to double-track the Trillium Line, in the future. The Trillium Line ‘needs’ to be shut down completely for 18 months so that it can be modified. And buses are better at managing short lengths of one-lane roadway. So let’s use all of these to see what we can do.

Starting at the Elwood Junction, I would take the VIA train over the O-Train. Trains are not that great at going up and down quickly, so the VIA trains would be high over Heron Road, high over the O-Train, high over the pedestrian path, and high over the Airport Parkway. The Trillium Line would be kept low under Heron Road, and low under the VIA line.

Since the O-Train currently goes over top of the SE Transitway, I would swap these two, putting the buses on the overpass and the trains on the lower bridge over the Sawmill Creek.



This means that the buses will need to deal with the single-lane bridge by using traffic signals at each end. I would not expect this to be a problem for the buses – although it might slow them down a bit. Having buses negotiate a single lane is much more efficient than having trains do it, with their associated switching delays.

This swap puts the trains in the 4-lane Transitway corridor and the buses in the rail corridor. The train is currently running on a single track, with a short passing track between Sawmill Creek and Walkley Road. There is sufficient width in the corridor, however, to have two paved lanes; or the buses can make do with occasional passing lanes.

The O-Train could be double-tracked as desired along its new corridor.

Getting to Walkley, the train would already have a station available for its use; although the platforms would need to be raised.

Again, the buses would use signals to squeeze through the underpass of Walkley Road. The bus stops could be ‘far-side’ stops where the new ‘busway’ pavement widens on either side of Walkley Road; with pedestrian access ramps from the stops up to Walkley Road.

Bus connection of this new ‘busway’ to Walkley could be accomplished by connecting to the existing Transitway ramps, or by using Anand Private.



Finally, at the Walkley Junction, the two corridors would remain in this new ‘train on the west of the SE Transitway’ configuration, just as they are now. The O-Train would revert back to a single track.

The relatively wide SE Transitway underpass of the rail line has a clear span, between piers, of about 16 metres. This would be enough space for two 4-metre bus lanes and one set of tracks.



I would suggest that the Trillium Line be shut down for a period (length unknown) so that the Transitway buses can be moved over to the new corridor (digging new road-bed, paving, adding signals to single-lane sections). During this time, the current SE-Transitway would have little disruption. Once the buses are moved, then the current SE Transitway can be converted to rail and the Walkley Station can be modified. The Elwood grade separation would obviously also be done during this O-Train shut-down.

Before anyone points it out: Yes, this is technically an ‘Active’ rail line and we just can’t pave it - but we can if we provide an alternative track routing, which this does. As for the underpass clearances, if the height is not sufficient, I thing that the City has a good case to apply to have lenience all along the Trillium Line – although that might cause future problems for MOOSE.

Thoughts?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #224  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2017, 9:00 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Thoughts?
Interesting idea. I don't think OC Transpo would ever go for it though, and I'm not sure if we're really getting enough improvement to justify all the hassle.

The one problem that stands out to me is where would you put Walkley Transitway station? Typically OC Transpo wants 4 lanes for a station, but even with only 2 lanes you would need to put it very far away from Walkley Road.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #225  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2017, 7:37 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 2,680
There are two reasons for this idea:
a) It provides a simple grade separation at the Elwood Junction;
b) Since building new Transitway is less expensive than railway, I expect that it could be a faster and less expensive option for getting twin-track rail between Confederation Heights . . . oops . . . Mooney’s Bay Station and near Greenboro.

And, just because it came to mind; When the train is extended further south, the busway should become less busy, so it should be the train that needs the wider corridor that is currently the SE Transitway.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #226  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2017, 12:32 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,813
The transitway will not be that much less busy given that all the inner suburbs (where ridership is higher) are being directed to Hurdman.

This continues to demonstrate the futility of the Trillium Line when those living closest to it won't use it because of no direct service to downtown and inadequate frequency.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #227  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2017, 7:50 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 2,680
I am not seeing the SE Transitway staying as busy in the future. The train will be extended to the south (where lrt’s friend says the population, and therefore, ridership, is about to boom); a train is going to go to the airport; and the City has declared that it would like to redevelop the Greenboro P&R into something that will bring in lots of tax money.

[I expect that the Greenboro Station, and associated P&R, will be decommissioned once the Walkley Station and P&Rs further south are opened. Once the train is extended to South Keys, there is little point in keeping a station that is less than 700 metres (distance between platforms) away – especially if the P&R is disappearing and a station at Walkley is being added. Walkley Station would add a new station, that is a reasonable distance away from others (1750m to Mooney’s Bay; 2000m to South Keys), but if Greenboro Station were removed at the same time, it would not add extra delay to the LRT timing. Also, P&R facilities are being added along the train line outside the Greenbelt; which is where the City says that they should be, not within the Greenbelt. I might be wrong, but I expect the Greenboro Station’s existence to be limited.]

Having the train extended and no P&R lot inside the Greenbelt would leave only buses that circulate around the nearby neighbourhoods to use the SE-Transitway as a quick route to Hurdman. Instead, and in keeping with other areas that border the O-Train lines, the Local buses should simply shuttle people to the nearest train station. So, bus traffic on the SE Transitway (south of Billings Bridge) should, in my mind, become quite light.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #228  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2017, 8:02 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
I am not seeing the SE Transitway staying as busy in the future. The train will be extended to the south (where lrt’s friend says the population, and therefore, ridership, is about to boom); a train is going to go to the airport; and the City has declared that it would like to redevelop the Greenboro P&R into something that will bring in lots of tax money..
I think the airport train is going to be a pretty epic bust. I think there will be a lot of pressure to keep the 97.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #229  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 1:11 AM
HighwayStar's Avatar
HighwayStar HighwayStar is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: PHX (by way of YOW)
Posts: 1,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I think the airport train is going to be a pretty epic bust. I think there will be a lot of pressure to keep the 97.
agree x5...

the airport train (as currently planned) is one of the silliest concepts ever proposed. Who exactly are they targeting with this train?

I mean how many families and business types are going to opt for a DOUBLE transfer to downtown ... vs an 11 minute cab/uber ride ???
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #230  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 5:11 AM
OtrainUser OtrainUser is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I think the airport train is going to be a pretty epic bust. I think there will be a lot of pressure to keep the 97.
Im pretty sure the city thinks so too which is why they got the feds to pay for that extension.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #231  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 5:29 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
I am not seeing the SE Transitway staying as busy in the future. The train will be extended to the south (where lrt’s friend says the population, and therefore, ridership, is about to boom); a train is going to go to the airport; and the City has declared that it would like to redevelop the Greenboro P&R into something that will bring in lots of tax money.

[I expect that the Greenboro Station, and associated P&R, will be decommissioned once the Walkley Station and P&Rs further south are opened. Once the train is extended to South Keys, there is little point in keeping a station that is less than 700 metres (distance between platforms) away – especially if the P&R is disappearing and a station at Walkley is being added. Walkley Station would add a new station, that is a reasonable distance away from others (1750m to Mooney’s Bay; 2000m to South Keys), but if Greenboro Station were removed at the same time, it would not add extra delay to the LRT timing. Also, P&R facilities are being added along the train line outside the Greenbelt; which is where the City says that they should be, not within the Greenbelt. I might be wrong, but I expect the Greenboro Station’s existence to be limited.]

Having the train extended and no P&R lot inside the Greenbelt would leave only buses that circulate around the nearby neighbourhoods to use the SE-Transitway as a quick route to Hurdman. Instead, and in keeping with other areas that border the O-Train lines, the Local buses should simply shuttle people to the nearest train station. So, bus traffic on the SE Transitway (south of Billings Bridge) should, in my mind, become quite light.
As somebody who has just returned from the Greenboro Park n Ride after attending the Grey Cup, I am a little puzzled. I am also puzzled by local buses shuttling to the nearest train station that does not take people downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #232  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 5:32 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighwayStar View Post
agree x5...

the airport train (as currently planned) is one of the silliest concepts ever proposed. Who exactly are they targeting with this train?

I mean how many families and business types are going to opt for a DOUBLE transfer to downtown ... vs an 11 minute cab/uber ride ???
Extend that thinking to every commuter who lives in the south end also requiring a double transfer to downtown. It will also be very popular obviously.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #233  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 5:34 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
Im pretty sure the city thinks so too which is why they got the feds to pay for that extension.
But the city will cancel the 97 to the airport anyways, no matter how unpopular the airport train turns out to be.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #234  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 2:54 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
I am not seeing the SE Transitway staying as busy in the future. The train will be extended to the south (where lrt’s friend says the population, and therefore, ridership, is about to boom); a train is going to go to the airport; and the City has declared that it would like to redevelop the Greenboro P&R into something that will bring in lots of tax money.

[I expect that the Greenboro Station, and associated P&R, will be decommissioned once the Walkley Station and P&Rs further south are opened. Once the train is extended to South Keys, there is little point in keeping a station that is less than 700 metres (distance between platforms) away – especially if the P&R is disappearing and a station at Walkley is being added. Walkley Station would add a new station, that is a reasonable distance away from others (1750m to Mooney’s Bay; 2000m to South Keys), but if Greenboro Station were removed at the same time, it would not add extra delay to the LRT timing. Also, P&R facilities are being added along the train line outside the Greenbelt; which is where the City says that they should be, not within the Greenbelt. I might be wrong, but I expect the Greenboro Station’s existence to be limited.]

Having the train extended and no P&R lot inside the Greenbelt would leave only buses that circulate around the nearby neighbourhoods to use the SE-Transitway as a quick route to Hurdman. Instead, and in keeping with other areas that border the O-Train lines, the Local buses should simply shuttle people to the nearest train station. So, bus traffic on the SE Transitway (south of Billings Bridge) should, in my mind, become quite light.
1. The Park & Ride at Greenboro is one of the busiest in the city that is full before 8am daily. I don't see it closing any time soon.

2. If the city is going to re-develop the P&R, why would they close the station and thus eliminate the major attraction of the site?

3. As LRT's friend says, there is no way local buses are going to end at South Keys or Greenboro unless there is a connection to a frequent LRT line that goes downtown. Every 10-12 minutes to Bayview or Gatineau is not going to cut it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #235  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 3:17 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 2,680
Interesting comments.

Do you consider the # 97 successful from the airport now? Why would a train connection to the airport be any less successful?

The # 97 takes 30 minutes to go from the airport to the Rideau Centre, and one leaves the airport every (roughly) 15 minutes during the day. If the timing of the airport shuttle works out, then its timing will be locked to the timing of the Trillium Line; that is, every 10-12 minutes. It will take about 5 minutes to get to Greenboro and another 4-5 minutes before a person is on the Trillium line heading north. The train trip from Greenboro to Bayview is 16 minutes, according to the schedule, and that might improve once more track is twinned at the north end. So, a trip from the airport to Bayview Station will be about 26 minutes. Sorry I can’t estimate the length of time it will take the Confederation Line train to get from Bayview to the Rideau Centre, but a train will be going in that direction “every 5 minutes or less”.

Remember, also, that the # 97, if it continued to go to the airport, would be limited to only going as far north as Hurdman; where the person would need to transfer to the Confederation Line. It is currently shown as an 18 minutes ride from the airport to Hurdman on the # 97.

Since the # 97 will be removed once the airport shuttle train begins, is there any real reason to expect that fewer people will take transit to/from the airport? If they take transit now, then the shuttle will be their transit option when it starts. I was chatting with a fellow downtown who had a suitcase with him. He had just flown in from out west and was not going to spend $45 to get downtown. He was very pleased that there was a public transit option for less than a tenth of the cost – even if it took him a bit longer.

If I recall, when I was in Paris, I took the CDGVAL to Terminal 2; transferred to the RER; and then transferred again onto the Metro to get to a distance that I could walk to my lodging.

Don’t forget that the airport shuttle will also be providing service to the EY Centre; and that station will be closer than stops that the buses currently stop at.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #236  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 3:30 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 2,680
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
1. The Park & Ride at Greenboro is one of the busiest in the city that is full before 8am daily. I don't see it closing any time soon.

2. If the city is going to re-develop the P&R, why would they close the station and thus eliminate the major attraction of the site?

3. As LRT's friend says, there is no way local buses are going to end at South Keys or Greenboro unless there is a connection to a frequent LRT line that goes downtown. Every 10-12 minutes to Bayview or Gatineau is not going to cut it.
Once the P&R lots further south are developed and serviced by the Trillium Line, we will see if the City follows through with their plans to redevelop the Greenboro P&R site. At this point, I can only go by what the City has announced; that they want to redevelop the site for high density, and that P&R lots should not be within the Greenbelt. The City also insists that multi-level parking is not in the cards for P&R lots; so their high density development will likely NOT include a P&R lot.

[Yes, there is a small P&R at Baseline, but it is destined to be cut in half by the future station / bus facilities.]

Once that P&R is gone, what is the draw for the Greenboro Station? Is there really a need to have a stop at each end of a big-box mall? Would the delay of a station be better at a new station at Walkley – instead of doubling the delay between South Keys and Mooney’s Bay?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #237  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 3:32 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post

[I expect that the Greenboro Station, and associated P&R, will be decommissioned once the Walkley Station and P&Rs further south are opened. Once the train is extended to South Keys, there is little point in keeping a station that is less than 700 metres (distance between platforms) away – especially if the P&R is disappearing and a station at Walkley is being added. Walkley Station would add a new station, that is a reasonable distance away from others (1750m to Mooney’s Bay; 2000m to South Keys), but if Greenboro Station were removed at the same time, it would not add extra delay to the LRT timing. Also, P&R facilities are being added along the train line outside the Greenbelt; which is where the City says that they should be, not within the Greenbelt. I might be wrong, but I expect the Greenboro Station’s existence to be limited.]

Having the train extended and no P&R lot inside the Greenbelt would leave only buses that circulate around the nearby neighbourhoods to use the SE-Transitway as a quick route to Hurdman. Instead, and in keeping with other areas that border the O-Train lines, the Local buses should simply shuttle people to the nearest train station. So, bus traffic on the SE Transitway (south of Billings Bridge) should, in my mind, become quite light.
These two paragraphs contradict each other. If local Hunt Club area buses were to "shuttle people to the nearest transit line", then they would have to begin / end at a O-Train station with a local bus loop and some minimal layover space. The only station in the area that currently has a local bus loop is Greenboro Station, so by eliminating Greenboro you would have more local buses continuing to Billings (the next station with a local loop) and more transit traffic on the SE Transitway, not less. Maybe you could build a local transfer into South Keys Station, but that would probably require some private land acquisitions.

Besides that point, would you recommend that people visiting or living at the north side of South Keys mall walk all the way to the south side to take the O-train? Or are you proposing a better way to walk to Walkley? Either way, removing Greenboro is not very conducive to TOD.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #238  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 3:36 PM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Is there really a need to have a stop at each end of a big-box mall?
Yes. That is a loooong big-box mall. Having a transit station at each end is completely reasonable.

Hypothetical Question - Do you think the City will be able to get good value and good TOD out of developing their P&R lot if they remove the station?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #239  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 4:13 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Once the P&R lots further south are developed and serviced by the Trillium Line, we will see if the City follows through with their plans to redevelop the Greenboro P&R site. At this point, I can only go by what the City has announced; that they want to redevelop the site for high density, and that P&R lots should not be within the Greenbelt. The City also insists that multi-level parking is not in the cards for P&R lots; so their high density development will likely NOT include a P&R lot.
Correct. The city's strategy is to remove all P&R lots inside the greenbelt because:
  1. They want to discourage people from driving through the greenbelt, but instead park outside of it and take transit through it.
  2. Transit inside the greenbelt is considered "good enough" that people who live inside it don't need P&R lots.
Now people might disagree with the city's logic, but that is their thinking.

Quote:
Once that P&R is gone, what is the draw for the Greenboro Station? Is there really a need to have a stop at each end of a big-box mall? Would the delay of a station be better at a new station at Walkley – instead of doubling the delay between South Keys and Mooney’s Bay?
It depends what they do with the P&R lot. If it becomes a TOD development, then they will definitely want to keep the station.

At about 750m from South Keys, it is a bit close, but not too bad. It will be about 1 km from Walkley, which is very reasonable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #240  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2017, 4:32 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
It will take about 5 minutes to get to Greenboro
Sounds reasonable.

Quote:
and another 4-5 minutes before a person is on the Trillium line heading north.
I suspect it will be slightly less than that. I figure it will be less than 3 minutes (likely about 2 minutes).

Quote:
The train trip from Greenboro to Bayview is 16 minutes, according to the schedule, and that might improve once more track is twinned at the north end.
Any improvements will be countered by losses due to extra stops.

Quote:
So, a trip from the airport to Bayview Station will be about 26 minutes.
Lets say a round 25 as I think it will be a little less than you estimated.

Quote:
Sorry I can’t estimate the length of time it will take the Confederation Line train to get from Bayview to the Rideau Centre, but a train will be going in that direction “every 5 minutes or less”.
I'm guessing it will take about 6 minutes. As for frequency, it will be every 3 to 15 minutes, so 5 minutes is a reasonable average including changing platforms, so we are looking at about 36 minutes.

Quote:
Remember, also, that the # 97, if it continued to go to the airport, would be limited to only going as far north as Hurdman; where the person would need to transfer to the Confederation Line. It is currently shown as an 18 minutes ride from the airport to Hurdman on the # 97.
I'm guessing it will be about 5 minutes to Rideau from Hurdman on the Confederation Line, with the same wait, so it will be about 8 minutes slower, though most of that is due to the longer route and general slowness of the Trillium line, not the transfer.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:49 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.