Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by McC

It's 1% of the City's share of the capital costs, that's literally a rounding error on the total cost.

It seems like Calgary had a similar policy and it ran amok:

• Video Link
Calgary’s controversy over public art

The city of Calgary has suspended its public art policy in the wake of a few controversial projects. It’s not the only Canadian city that struggles with similar projects. Reid Fiest reports.

https://globalnews.ca/video/3858956/controversy-over-public-art

I think one big problem with the programme is that the art has to be tied to the project that is paying for it. I am curious what art they are going to build for the Combined Sewage Storage Tunnel.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

Transportation Master Plan, November 2013:
Map 4 Rapid Transit and Transit Priority Network – 2031 Network Concept
http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents.ottawa.ca/files/documents/tmp_map_4_en.pdf

"Never", on other words.

The city-defined "inner urban" area will get one new Trillium Line station at Gladstone, and two, maybe three, on the very fringes, as part of the westward extension to make suburbanites happy.

Otherwise: buses for you, urbanites. LRT is for the suburbs.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by McC

It's 1% of the City's share of the capital costs, that's literally a rounding error on the total cost.

On, say, a 1.5-billion-dollar transit project (standalone or extension), if the city's overall share is 1/3, that's $5-million.

You can do some pretty good transit things for that amount of cash.

Let the blue-hairs and granola-munchers pay for the art. The public dime should be devoted to building actual transit.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Open House #2 - December 7, 2017
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-en...sment-study#open-house-2-december-7-2017

I wish I could attend this Open House, but I will be out of town that day.

An updated map of the potential LRT extension was published on Stittsville Central.

This route runs parallel to the Queensway from Moodie Drive, swinging north towards Campeau before heading south. The original route plan would have ended at Palladium, but a new map shows additional stops at Maple Grove and Hazeldean Road.

I can't believe that instead of shortening the route because of the uncertainty of the CTC, they are extending it to Hazeldean Road with a strange jogto the east.

One quote in the article that I have issues with is:

(I have a feeling there will be a lot of pressure on the City to accelerate the timeline, once people realize next year how many transfers they’ll have to make to get from Stittsville to dowtown.)

This extension will not reduce the number of transfers needed as few will live within walking distance of an LRT station, so a bus to LRT transfer will be necessary for the vast majority of people. All this is doing is changing where the transfer occurs. Also by putting a park and ride on Hazledean Rd (which is pretty much only useful for Stittsville residents), it will encourage more people to drive to the LRT instead of taking the bus.

For the full article http://stittsvillecentral.ca/notebook-preferred-route-for-light-rail-extends-to-hazeldean/

[lrt's friend]

And people laughed about my recent Stittsville comment?

All our money is being pumped into one corridor. Is this really the right thing to be doing?

If you live south of the Queensway, which is probably half the city's population, we get effectively one station, Baseline Station, a bunch of bus routes and a hobbled Trillium Line that doesn't go downtown and that is limited by its one track design.

I joined this board when Larry O'Brien was contemplating cancelling the North-South route, which many objected to because it didn't serve the primary need, east-west, and was not fair. Where is the fairness, when we essentially build only east-west and we need to run trains to the very edge of suburban development at the expense of a more balanced approach of running rapid transit in multiple directions from the downtown core and then gradually build out to the suburbs?

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If you live south of the Queensway, which is probably half the city's population, we get effectively one station, Baseline Station, a bunch of bus routes and a hobbled Trillium Line that doesn't go downtown and that is limited by its one track design.

If you live south of the Queensway they are also proposing Palladium, Maple Grove, and Hazeldean

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

And people laughed about my recent Stittsville comment?

Ya. This one really caught me off guard. I was not expecting it.

All our money is being pumped into one corridor. Is this really the right thing to be doing?

Simple answer, no.

While it is cheaper to extend an existing corridor than it is to build a new one, and it does make sense to build it out to some extent, there is a limit to its usefulness. As I said before, the priorities should be to extend to Place d'Orleans, Eagleson/Terry Fox and Fallowfield/Marketplace Station. Once all of those are done we can look at other corridors or extensions.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

If you live south of the Queensway they are also proposing Palladium, Maple Grove, and Hazeldean

Don't forget Baseline and Iris.

A better reference would have been south of Baseline and its extensions to the east and west (Hazeldean, Robertson, and Innes (not connected but on same alignment)).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

If you live south of the Queensway they are also proposing Palladium, Maple Grove, and Hazeldean

I was waiting for that one, haha

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Once all of those are done we can look at other corridors or extensions.

Once those are done, Ottawa will spend fifty or sixty years growing its debt capacity back up and shrinking its transit debt back down to the point where it can contemplate another major LRT project.

That project will inevitably be yet another surface-running route or two to the suburbs.

[roger1818]

Now that the shock of this change has worn off, here are my thoughts of the stops (my made up names) proposed from east to west (using the map as my only reference):

Eagleson/Terron (+4 km)
It looks like it will straddle Eagleson, but the main station will be on the west end. My guess is they will have an overpass to the Eagleson P&R from the east end of the platform. By removing the busway they can add a few more parking spots, but not a lot. I would love to see them convert it to a multi-level lot. The extension east of Eagleson will likely be too far away to be useful and closed. They will also likely have a pathway to Terron Station.

Kanata Central/Robert Gray (+1 km)
Will likely be close to the pedestrain overpass. Takes advantage of existing pathways to Gray Cres and Maritime Way. Lots of TOD potential south of the pedestrian overpass (Kanata Town Centre, Kanata Square and Comfort Inn could be redeveloped).

Terry Fox (+1 km)
Near the current station, which is close to the pedestrian friendly portion of the Kanata Centrum (yes there is one) and with an LRT station, that could be expanded. The P&R is awkward to get in and out of though.

Didsbury (+800 m)
Likely between the Dymon Storage and highway maintenance facility. Inconvenient location. Unsure who would use it as it doesn't seem like a very convenient location.

Arcadia (+1 km)
In the middle of nowhere now but the Minto Arcadia development likely wil be extended to it by then. Don't know what is planned but so far it is all single family homes with a few town home sprinkled in. Not sure why this location was chosen.

Cyclone Taylor (+800 m direct)
Unlike the current bus loop, it will be on the back side of the CTC, so you will have to walk all the way around the building. Not sure if it really matters though as the future of the CTC is in question. Primarily used as a P&R.

Maple Grove (+1.2 km)
Near the east entrance to the "Maple Grove Depot" and what looks like some sort of pumping station. Even proposed developments aren't going to be close to this station. That might change, but it is kind of limited so it will likely be a bus transfer station.

Hazeldean (+900 m)

Between Toys R' Us and Bushtukah and close to a sprawling mass of newly build single family homes with more coming soon. There will be a P&R but it is really only useful for Stittsville residents.

[1overcosc]

Stops are well placed, I think. Average spacing of around 900m which is appropriate for the suburbs, and there's a good amount of TOD potential and pedestrian accessibility.

[Buggys]

Ack! Why are they proposing to go further than the Palladium, before double tracking the Trillium line! :-(

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

On, say, a 1.5-billion-dollar transit project (standalone or extension), if the city's overall share is 1/3, that's $5-million.

You can do some pretty good transit things for that amount of cash.

Let the blue-hairs and granola-munchers pay for the art. The public dime should be devoted to building actual transit.

And this is the mentality that makes Ottawa a lousy city.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

And this is the mentality that makes Ottawa a lousy city.

How so?

I think it would make it a better city. Blue-hairs and granolas are better at picking art than a committee of bureaucrats. Let them, and let them pay for it, too.

The city can provide the space.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Stops are well placed, I think. Average spacing of around 900m which is appropriate for the suburbs,

I don't know, I was thinking they are a bit too close together. The first three aren't so bad because they will be heavily used. The others seem redicilous to me.

and there's a good amount of TOD potential and pedestrian accesshibility.

Huh? The only station I see as having any TOD potential is "Kanata Central/Robert Gray." The remainder are either already developed (and not TOD) or will be in a sea of new single famly homes by the time it is built.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

How so?

I think it would make it a better city. Blue-hairs and granolas are better at picking art than a committee of bureaucrats. Let them, and let them pay for it, too.

The city can provide the space.

There is a big difference between PAY and CHOOSE.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't know, I was thinking they are a bit too close together. The first three aren't so bad because they will be heavily used. The others seem redicilous to me.



Huh? The only station I see as having any TOD potential is "Kanata Central/Robert Gray." The remainder are either already developed (and not TOD) or will be in a sea of new single famly homes by the time it is built.

The stations at Didsbury and Arcadia (the two immediately west of Centrum) are in lands intended for higher density (they're inside the designated Kanata Town Centre) and unlike in Orleans they're located off the highway so the TOD potential is good.

Maple Grove and Hazeldean have good pedestrian accessibility and theres potential for TOD around Hazeldean.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The stations at Didsbury and Arcadia (the two immediately west of Centrum) are in lands intended for higher density (they're inside the designated Kanata Town Centre) and unlike in Orleans they're located off the highway so the TOD potential is good.

I believe the land around Didsbury is zoned commercial (they have been talking about putting a funeral home between Roger Neilson Way and the 417 for years). As for Arcadia, I believe it is residential but will likely be low density. Also, given that it looks like the station will back on to wet lands, it will only have development to the north.

Maple Grove and Hazeldean have good pedestrian accessibility and theres potential for TOD around Hazeldean.

Maple Grove does not have good pedestrian accessibly. I drive along that stretch most days and it is a narrow, 2 lane highway with no sidewalk.

To the north-east, there is a city depot. A tributary of the Carp River blocks Maple Grove from Richcraft Homes' planned subdivision east of the proposed line between Hazeldean and Maple Grove (you can see the plan here). A pond limits access to the subdivision to the south-west. To the north-west it is farm land.

The Richcraft plan does show some medium density housing planned for the lots closest to the two stations, but their definition of that is 3 story apartment buildings. Beyond that is is townhouses and single family homes. On the opposite side of Hazeldean it is farmland, so it could be developed,

Regardless, Hazeldean would be about 20 stops and 25km from downtown. Is that the best location in the city for TOD?

[roger1818]

For those who are interested, I have made a Google My Map of the proposed route. It is a bit of a guesstimate but should be reasonably close though not perfect. If you see any errors, let me know.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=16vx5U4OGZpYisB_J8C6eI-cT2ZQ1q5i7&usp=sharing