Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Reecemartin]

I recently visited the soon to open York University TTC station for some exterior shots, it really puts into perspective how inadequate our Canada Line infrastructure is at least in terms of station size and design, of course the TTC subway is in a different ballpark however it still gives soem good perspective, especially for Millenium Line extension stations:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG74MBLVmWA

I also visited York University where the amount of buses servicing the area is quite honestly incredible and a testament to how far we should be able to go in terms of expanding bus services in Metro Vancouver (notice the numerous articulated and double decker buses) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCB9uVH8Lk


Finally I took a trip on the GO Barrie Line which I think is a really good example of what we should be aiming to do with West Coast Express service expansion in Vancouver. They Line is currently being double tracked and is being integrated into the Line 1 subway extension I mentioned before at Downsview Park station, imagine how effective the new integrations with the Evergreen Extension on the WCE would be if we could get even hourly 2 way service going: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lOD6cSbHbk

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Finally I took a trip on the GO Barrie Line which I think is a really good example of what we should be aiming to do with West Coast Express service expansion in Vancouver. They Line is currently being double tracked and is being integrated into the Line 1 subway extension I mentioned before at Downsview Park station, imagine how effective the new integrations with the Evergreen Extension on the WCE would be if we could get even hourly 2 way service going: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lOD6cSbHbk

This has been brought up before. To do what you're describing means owning the rail line(s) and we do not - the rail companies do. Freight is the priority on the lines here and a limited amount of usage is rented out to transit. So far the only local rail corridor that has been bought has been Arbutus, and nothing has been built from scratch.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lOD6cSbHbk

These are some nice videos Reece

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Sheba

This has been brought up before. To do what you're describing means owning the rail line(s) and we do not - the rail companies do. Freight is the priority on the lines here and a limited amount of usage is rented out to transit. So far the only local rail corridor that has been bought has been Arbutus, and nothing has been built from scratch.

In the end anything is possible, should be able to run hourly service with one track. Moreover negotiating with the rail companies is not impossible nor is buying out or expanding trackage.

WCE has a lot of potential as an express rail link and as a potential future Downtown Relief Line for the Expo Line, might as well start pressuring the rail companies to expand service sooner rather than later.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by waves

These are some nice videos Reece

Thanks! If you want me to shoot anything else let me know.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

In the end anything is possible, should be able to run hourly service with one track. Moreover negotiating with the rail companies is not impossible nor is buying out or expanding trackage.

WCE has a lot of potential as an express rail link and as a potential future Downtown Relief Line for the Expo Line, might as well start pressuring the rail companies to expand service sooner rather than later.

Wondering about the technical and economic feasibility of electrifying the wce too

[MIPS]

I think a problem with electrifying the WCE is that whatever overhead wiring needs to be installed would have to take into account double-height container cars that would also travel the line. Pantograph systems don't really like large gaps between the top of the car and the cable.

[
Image courtesy of the CBC

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

In the end anything is possible, should be able to run hourly service with one track. Moreover negotiating with the rail companies is not impossible nor is buying out or expanding trackage.

Why is the West Coast Express delayed so much? - May 12, 2015

Riders on the West Coast Express experienced another delay this morning when a broken down freight train blocked the track near Maple Meadows station.

It is the latest delay in the recent spate of delays with more than 100 service disruptions recorded over the past six months. While commuters may be quick to blame TransLink for the problems, the issues that have been causing the delays are the fault of Canadian Pacific Rail.

The eight-station, 69-kilometre-long West Coast Express service made its first trip in 1995 and runs on tracks owned and operated by CP Rail. TransLink leases track time from the railway company and a contract mandates that only five trains can run from downtown Vancouver to Mission during the morning peak hours.

During the evening peak hours, the same two-level trains make return trips ending in the eastern suburbs. There is no bidirectional service like SkyTrain and the train service only operates on weekdays. Each one way trip takes about 75 minutes.

But despite paying a hefty sum of over $5 million in track usage fees to CP Rail on an annual basis, the 20-year-long contract between the entities does not guarantee a standard of service reliability for the commuter train service: right-of-way priority is always given to freight trains, which leads to potentially lengthy delays for commuters.

To date, the vast majority of recent delays have been caused by freight trains and signal issues, all of which are completely out of TransLink’s control. In one incident on May 7, a West Coast Express train had to stop after it struck debris on the tracks.

“We rely on CP to ensure the tracks are safe and clear – so that we can fulfil our promise to our customers of getting them where they need to go safely – and on time,” TransLink spokesperson Chris Bryan told Vancity Buzz.

Eastbound West Coast Express delayed 80 hours over last 47 days, says TransLink - Dec 12, 2016

After a spate of delays to West Coast Express service, Metro Vancouver mayors expressed their frustration with CP Rail freight traffic they say is responsible.

In a pair of letters, TransLink and the Mayors' Council on Regional Transportation say over the past 47 operating days, eastbound West Coast Express trains have seen 319 station delays on 69 trains causing 80 hours of delay in total.

Train riders heading east from Vancouver Monday afternoon found copies of those letters on their seats: one was mostly an apology for the recent delays, the other an open letter to the federal minister of transportation and CP Rail CEO Hunter Harrison.

"We have repeatedly reached out to senior CP officials to ensure they take all necessary steps to restore the reliable service you expect and that CP is obligated by contract to provide," one letter, signed by TransLink CEO Kevin Desmond and BCRTC president Vivienne King.

"Unfortunately, despite assurances from CP, the situation has not yet improved … we continue to strongly advocate to CP and have appealed to the federal government to help press for an immediate fix."

The letters say there is "little clarity" from CP as to how the delays will be resolved.

More grain, intermodal traffic to blame, CP says

TransLink does not own the tracks the West Coast Express operates on: they are owned by CP Rail and TransLink leases them for certain windows of the day with the expectation certain targets for on-time trains will be met.

CP Rail did not comment for this story, instead providing a letter from Dec. 6 written to local mayors about the delays.

The letter says CP is looking for solutions but also notes that over recent months, intermodal and grain traffic has increased, creating congestion.

...

CP's letter also says the current congestion means it's time to "think about the future needs of freight and passenger services coexisting on the existing two tracks" and points out TransLink is not spending money on new West Coast Express infrastructure beyond rail cars.

[Reecemartin]

This allows me to mention a few key points -

GO has to deal with identical rolling stock (different LOCO's mind you) and also has to plan some electrification around large heigh requirements. Remember pantographs are spring loaded poles and can be extended high enough to cope with height issues.

This brings us back to the main point, if need be Translink could expand the corridor or purchase trackage to secure more reliable service. To operate hourly service to Maple Ridge would require at most 2 trains? If Translink bought 2 low floor DMU's they could operate those as the hourly service and would see the benefits of the enhanced acceleration.

Quite frankly all considered I think in the future improving rail transit service to Maple Ridge by expanding WCE could be very economical. Buy track or double track, buy 2 dmu's (or emus if we REALLY want to electrify), and platform long shelters like is being done at virtually every major GO station and you'd have a very premium service that would be fully sheltered, could offer wifi, and would probably be able to attract significantly more ridership than the current setup, especially if travel times could be reduced.

http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/improve/projects/default.aspx

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

one of the issues with double tracking is due to the narrow ROW due to rock/mountains/water/etc. the costs of doing that are more then in areas that are relatively flat and open with few hills/rivers.

if you look at the CP Main Line it is squished between a mountain and the river. the Grandview Cut exists because CPs river/mountain sandwich main line was the only route in so CN Rail, along with others, hand dug the Granview Cut to get into Vancouver. it shows how few rail corridors we really have when coming/going West/East.

[Reecemartin]

The line is already double tracked the whole way, now pushing CP to give up a track may be difficult however it's all in the power of government given enough will. 1 track would be totally sufficient for hourly service and probably even half hourly service.

[Reecemartin]

WeAnother option would be expanding one of the existing stations linked to the Evergreen extension, I'm sure the rail lines out to the valley would be more easily expanded and you'd still be able to create a rail link to the valley. Also would be nice to see TransLink add one car to each existing train in the form of one of the excellent looking new cab cars being used in Toronto and Seattle.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The line is already double tracked the whole way, now pushing CP to give up a track may be difficult however it's all in the power of government given enough will. 1 track would be totally sufficient for hourly service and probably even half hourly service.

CP Rail would never give up any of their trackage rights. they barely have enough capacity as it is. CP and CN used to share the CP Rail Main Line but because rail traffic has increased so much CN Rail had to reactivate their Burrard Inlet Spur Line connecting from the Grandview Cut to the Port of Vancouver.

i don't think you realize how many trains actually use those rail lines. they are very very very well used. both the CP and CN Rail Lines. and CN Rail wants to also double track their currently single tracked line.

as long as the Port of Vancouver is there, CP Rail and CN Rail will never sacrifice rail space as they want/need even more then they currently have.

[MIPS]

Unfortunately it means the only real solution to adding new heavy rail service will be to add new track and there unfortunately will be no cheap solution to that, including if the port relocated elsewhere to free up existing routes.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

CP Rail would never give up any of their trackage rights. they barely have enough capacity as it is. CP and CN used to share the CP Rail Main Line but because rail traffic has increased so much CN Rail had to reactivate their Burrard Inlet Spur Line connecting from the Grandview Cut to the Port of Vancouver.

i don't think you realize how many trains actually use those rail lines. they are very very very well used. both the CP and CN Rail Lines. and CN Rail wants to also double track their currently single tracked line.

as long as the Port of Vancouver is there, CP Rail and CN Rail will never sacrifice rail space as they want/need even more then they currently have.

Exactly. The rail companies own the lines - not the city or TransLink. That makes any comparisons to Toronto's rail passenger network irrelevant. Sure it would be nice if we could expand rail services here but it's not going to happen by trying to take over the existing network.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

WeAnother option would be expanding one of the existing stations linked to the Evergreen extension, I'm sure the rail lines out to the valley would be more easily expanded and you'd still be able to create a rail link to the valley. Also would be nice to see TransLink add one car to each existing train in the form of one of the excellent looking new cab cars being used in Toronto and Seattle.

Adding rail lines in the suburbs to connect with the Skytrain is plausible (I'm not going to go into where as that's a whole 'nother conversation). It's highly unlikely there will be on-ground rail going into Vancouver anytime soon as there just isn't the space for it. Even the Arbutus corridor (which will likely only ever be tram or LRT) isn't going to happen soon.

...and let us not forget the transportation plebiscite. The majority of people voted against paying to improve transportation in the region. Unless money starts falling from the sky, we're stuck with what we've got. Any ideas of increasing rail is going to have to come after the current Skytrain and LRT proposals are decided on and built or not.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The line is already double tracked the whole way, now pushing CP to give up a track may be difficult however it's all in the power of government given enough will.

Sure, the government is bound to do this! After all, it's not like we have any other transit issues that need solving first...

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The line is already double tracked the whole way, now pushing CP to give up a track may be difficult however it's all in the power of government given enough will. 1 track would be totally sufficient for hourly service and probably even half hourly service.

One track would only be sufficient for hourly service if they also had access to a second track. It takes the WCE 1h15m to get from Mission City to Waterfront, so unless you magically got this down to less than half an hour there would be two trains operating on the line at one time. And two trains on one line in opposite directions do not mix.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

One track would only be sufficient for hourly service if they also had access to a second track. It takes the WCE 1h15m to get from Mission City to Waterfront, so unless you magically got this down to less than half an hour there would be two trains operating on the line at one time. And two trains on one line in opposite directions do not mix.

Bi-directional service with passing stations are a thing. You just need precise scheduling and signalling.

You should watch some videos of how the Arbutus Streetcar used to work. They had a baton/flag that they passed between cars to confirm that the track was empty.

The WCE doesn't even use a very long train, so the passing stations would be relatively short sidings.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Bi-directional service with passing stations are a thing. You just need precise scheduling and signalling.

You should watch some videos of how the Arbutus Streetcar used to work. They had a baton/flag that they passed between cars to confirm that the track was empty.

The WCE doesn't even use a very long train, so the passing stations would be relatively short sidings.

Which would require building new track in spaces that other people have already shown don't exist. While it's easier than laying all new track the whole way, it's still infeasible.

These sorts of things are best taken to the transit fantasies thread anyhow because upgrading the WCE's service to have new rail lines or sidings for hourly service definitely fall in the fantasy category.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Which would require building new track in spaces that other people have already shown don't exist. While it's easier than laying all new track the whole way, it's still infeasible.

These sorts of things are best taken to the transit fantasies thread anyhow because upgrading the WCE's service to have new rail lines or sidings for hourly service definitely fall in the fantasy category.