Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[EpicPonyTime]

Unless I'm mistaken, the article is trying to say the Stamps would play at a refurbished McMahon, not the fieldhouse.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm sure there's some research to be done based on demographics and where fans are coming from and how they get there, and i'm sure some of the Halifax research is leaning on getting people to go to games who live in Truro or the Valley (which is one of the few upsides I can see in a northern suburb location), which would be unfortunate for Halifax taxpayers in the event that they foot some of the bill.

I hear this a lot but I doubt it's accurate. Truro is an hour away and that whole county has something like 50,000 people who on average have lower incomes than people in the city. It makes no sense to locate a stadium less centrally in a city of 400,000 to cut off 1/4 of the travel time for some rural areas with 100,000 people (and maybe adding travel time for the other rural areas west of town).

The real reason for a suburban location is that it would be a cheap greenfield site that could be built on quickly. An urban site would cost more and would come with more hurdles.

That being said, I still think an urban site would be better, and there are a lot of good ones in Halifax (Gorsebrook, Commons, maybe around Young Street). Shannon Park would be better too. There just doesn't seem to be much political leadership to make this happen right now. Unfortunately, many of the residents and politicians in the urban core would not support a stadium even if it were something broadly desirable for the region and if the urban core made the most sense from a planning perspective.

Maybe the temporary soccer stadium will help with this once it's up and running for a while and people see how a venue like that can work in a downtown area. Then again there is already an arena in downtown Halifax and it's hugely successful, so I'm not sure the people who are still anti-stadium could be won over. Many of them are anti-everything and just have to be ignored if any progress is to be made.

[dtown]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I believe the small 5,000 seat (or so) SMU stadium was demolished was it not? From what I can recall it used to be a solidly built grandstand (maybe brick?) but it was torn down not that long ago and replaced with some kind of bleacher set-up.

Maybe someone from Halifax can confirm this...

Yes this is true. Years of neglect basically led to the main grandstand falling apart so it had to be torn down and was replaced by permanent "temporary metal bleachers" if that makes any sense. Today it probably seats 2,000 ish if i had to guess.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though Tampere are building this:

And Halifax will be needing a new arena eventually, as well. New renovations aside the building is nearing 40 years old and has some drawbacks.

Originally Posted by someone123

I hear this a lot but I doubt it's accurate. Truro is an hour away and that whole county has something like 50,000 people who on average have lower incomes than people in the city. It makes no sense to locate a stadium less centrally in a city of 400,000 to cut off 1/4 of the travel time for some rural areas with 100,000 people (and maybe adding travel time for the other rural areas west of town).

What would you say about the likelihood of older residents in Cumberland or Colchester being more likely to attend games than millennials on the Peninsula, regardless of where the stadium is located?

For the sake of math, residents in counties within an hour NE/NW:
Colchester (Truro): 50,585
Hants (Windsor): 42,558
Kings (Kentville): 60,600
TOTAL: 153,743

A Western location (Bayers) makes things a little easier for the ~50K in Lunenburg.

Placing the stadium on the peninsula would add roughly 15-20 minutes sans traffic, and I think a big mental hurdle for many would be dealing with traffic once in the city. This is a widespread mental hurdle that is prevalent in a lot of Atlantic Canada to the point where many living in rural areas will swear off entering urban areas simply out of spite or fear of whatever mysteries the big city might hold. I would find it difficult to argue against the thought that a suburban stadium wouldn't be more enticing for rural residents if they could drive in, park at the stadium, and leave without having to worry about hitting cyclists, having their cars broken into or, god forbid, having to ride a bus or look for a parking spot more than a 10 minute walk away from the stadium. A big, power centre stadium appeals to them and makes their lives easier. This says nothing of potential fans trekking in from NB/PEI who could get in and out hassle-free without having to deal with local urban traffic.

Originally Posted by someone123

The real reason for a suburban location is that it would be a cheap greenfield site that could be built on quickly. An urban site would cost more and would come with more hurdles.
Absolutely, but it would also be more directly accessible to thousands who don't want to trek out to Dartmouth Crossing for a couple hours. Combining the stadium with a large-scale power centre is smart because it probably crosses off a lot of demographic keys for fans willing to attend games.

Agreed, a large-scale urban stadium in a city like Halifax is always going to be a tough sell, but the below point is important:

Originally Posted by someone123

Maybe the temporary soccer stadium will help with this once it's up and running for a while and people see how a venue like that can work in a downtown area.

This is precisely what i've been saying for the past few weeks and I agree. Having a smaller stadium will warm people up to the idea of a more prominent larger stadium in a more urban setting.

That said, I hope Halifax doesn't end up cheaping out on a stadium that could be much better but is rushed for expediency/cost factors. If you're going to have a stadium I sincerely hope it's a proper stadium and not a half-assed attempt at one. This mentality is what got Ottawa into it's Kanata foray and what Moncton narrowly avoided with its new Events Centre.

Originally Posted by someone123

That being said, I still think an urban site would be better, and there are a lot of good ones in Halifax (Gorsebrook, Commons, maybe around Young Street). Shannon Park would be better too. There just doesn't seem to be much political leadership to make this happen right now. Unfortunately, many of the residents and politicians in the urban core would not support a stadium even if it were something broadly desirable for the region and if the urban core made the most sense from a planning perspective.

Shannon is probably the best location that can be hoped for right now. It's close enough to the city centre that it doesn't really create any sprawl and isn't difficult for urban residents to reach whilst still being accessible to rural folks.

Originally Posted by someone123

Then again there is already an arena in downtown Halifax and it's hugely successful, so I'm not sure the people who are still anti-stadium could be won over. Many of them are anti-everything and just have to be ignored if any progress is to be made.

These people are always going to exist no matter what is proposed - the key is, as you've said, local leadership willing to push through it and against NIMBYism in general.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

What would you say about the likelihood of older residents in Cumberland or Colchester being more likely to attend games than millennials on the Peninsula, regardless of where the stadium is located?

I don't really know but I would guess that a person living 1.5 hours away in a small town is worth only a small fraction of the revenue to a hypothetical CFL team. Meanwhile the Peninsula is not just millennials, it has many of the wealthiest people in the region. Another issue is no matter which suburb you put the stadium in it will be farther away on average from all of the suburban residents, not just people on the Peninsula. Put it in Dartmouth Crossing and it's a pain to get to from Clayton Park. Put it in Bayers Lake and it's a pain to get to from Cole Harbour. The Peninsula is in the middle.

For the most part I think people seriously overestimate the importance of regional markets outside of metropolitan areas on sports ticket sales (people driving 1 hour or more, people flying in, etc.). Most tickets are sold to locals. Money from TV and merchandise may be different but also probably doesn't depend on which neighbourhood a stadium is built in.

Shannon is probably the best location that can be hoped for right now. It's close enough to the city centre that it doesn't really create any sprawl and isn't difficult for urban residents to reach whilst still being accessible to rural folks.

The nice thing about Shannon Park is it has many different types of access, including water access for ferries, and it's being redeveloped as a mixed-use area. It's a big shame the city didn't ask Canada Lands to explicitly plan for a stadium in the area someday, but it probably still could happen.

One weird thing about Halifax is that people there act like there's no space for anything new but then again there are areas like Gorsebrook Park, which is a giant field with some minor sports stuff scattered around. The Commons similarly have a bunch of low value stuff from the 1960's and earlier scattered around. There isn't any really compelling reason why a stadium site couldn't be created from an enlarged Wanderer Ground site.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

What would you say about the likelihood of older residents in Cumberland or Colchester being more likely to attend games than millennials on the Peninsula, regardless of where the stadium is located?
l.

You seem to be insinuating that millennials can't be interested in the CFL. While this may be true in some cities it's certainly not true in all of them. It's definitely not the case in Ottawa where the Redblacks are still a bit of a "new thing" that's cool - a Halifax CFL club would have the same new car smell.

[MonctonRad]

A suburban location for a football stadium hosting only nine regular season home games per year is just fine. A stadium occupies a big footprint, and would be a waste of space in the core (or on the peninsula in general).

I agree that you shouldn't expect too many ticket sales for people living more than an hour from the city, and that the target demographic is therefore that of metro Haligonians, but most people on the peninsula are university students, millenials and educated professionals who might not be part of that demographic. It's best to consider suburbanites, exurbanites and regional rural folk who might be more typical football fans, and aren't necessarily happy navigating the narrow streets and congested roadways of downtown Halifax.

Dartmouth Crossing is pretty ideal (except for people driving in from the south shore). It has pretty good highway access, nearby hotels and other attractions (like IKEA, chain restaurants and a Cineplex theatre) that would appeal to families considering coming to the metro area for a weekend that includes a football game as well as some shopping and entertainment. There's also lots of land out there for additional commercial/retail/residential development that could be used to help finance a new stadium as part of a larger package deal.

I know if I drove down from Moncton for a game, that it would be appealing to just get a room at one of the hotels in DC, park the car for the weekend, go to the game, grab a meal and a beer at Montana's or Jack Astor's and maybe take in a movie at the end of the evening. It would be quite appealing actually, with no worries about downtown parking or traffic.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You seem to be insinuating that millennials can't be interested in the CFL. While this may be true in some cities it's certainly not true in all of them. It's definitely not the case in Ottawa where the Redblacks are still a bit of a "new thing" that's cool - a Halifax CFL club would have the same new car smell.

It would also be the biggest regularly-scheduled live sporting event in the whole region.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A suburban location for a football stadium hosting only nine regular season home games per year is just fine. A stadium occupies a big footprint, and would be a waste of space in the core (or on the peninsula in general).

The stadium hopefully won't be used only for the CFL though. It would be a great venue for all sorts of things. The Scotiabank Centre has events every few days year-round. That should be the goal for a stadium.

People say an outdoor stadium would only be for a short season yet don't they manage to host Grey Cup events in cities like Edmonton and Regina in late November?

[blueandgoldguy]

BMO Field was built for $67 million 10 years ago and that was for a 17,000 seater. It's doubtful you could get the minimum 24-25,000 seat stadium in Halifax complete with the necessary suites, club seats/club areas, modern locker rooms, media rooms, therapy rooms, meeting rooms, big screens expected for a CFL team for anywhere close to $60 million.

If they cheap out on this thing, it will just put the team behind the 8-ball from the beginning. Not enough revenue streams for the hypothetical Halifax team to function and compete with other CFL teams, and substandard locker room and training facilities means the team will have trouble drawing players once they see what the stadiums in places like Edmonton, Winnipeg and Saskatchewan have to offer.

[esquire]

^ Let's say that $60 million is unrealistically low... set the budget for $100 million and I'm guessing that you could probably pay for something in the ballpark of BMO Field in its original configuration. Say, around 20,000 seats, a basic array of premium seating and clubhouse facilities, and not a whole lot else.

But that could be all that is needed to get the team off the ground... build something like that to start and then add more seats, amenities a decade down the road just like BMO.

Even if the facilities in Halifax won't be amazing, they'll still be nice and modern and a far cry from the dumps that a lot of CFL teams were housed in until a few years ago.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Unless I'm mistaken, the article is trying to say the Stamps would play at a refurbished McMahon, not the fieldhouse.

To be honest I'm not really sure what's going on there. The article talks about "a new home" for the Stampeders and then goes on to talk about the fieldhouse, the rendering of which resembles the proposed new venue for the Stamps proposed earlier.

Unless the "renovation" to McMahon involves a phased demolition and replacement of the existing grandstands, it's just fresh paint and window dressing.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

Meanwhile the Peninsula is not just millennials, it has many of the wealthiest people in the region. Another issue is no matter which suburb you put the stadium in it will be farther away on average from all of the suburban residents, not just people on the Peninsula. Put it in Dartmouth Crossing and it's a pain to get to from Clayton Park. Put it in Bayers Lake and it's a pain to get to from Cole Harbour. The Peninsula is in the middle.

Theoretically the Peninsula would already have the transit system and frequency in place to service a high-traffic stadium which is centrally-located. How does a Bayers Lake location handle increased traffic and potential transit options? At least residents on the Peninsula are currently used to that sort of traffic and congestion. For me, Peninsula is the lesser of all evils when dealing with stadium location and ease-of-access. If the transit system is already built for getting commuters in and out during high-peak hours it would make sense for a stadium to utilize that same transit system for the same users on weekends.

Originally Posted by someone123

For the most part I think people seriously overestimate the importance of regional markets outside of metropolitan areas on sports ticket sales (people driving 1 hour or more, people flying in, etc.). Most tickets are sold to locals. Money from TV and merchandise may be different but also probably doesn't depend on which neighbourhood a stadium is built in.

Agreed, which is why the option of a CFL team in Moncton even being posited was absurd.

Originally Posted by someone123

The nice thing about Shannon Park is it has many different types of access, including water access for ferries, and it's being redeveloped as a mixed-use area. It's a big shame the city didn't ask Canada Lands to explicitly plan for a stadium in the area someday, but it probably still could happen.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by someone123

One weird thing about Halifax is that people there act like there's no space for anything new but then again there are areas like Gorsebrook Park, which is a giant field with some minor sports stuff scattered around. The Commons similarly have a bunch of low value stuff from the 1960's and earlier scattered around. There isn't any really compelling reason why a stadium site couldn't be created from an enlarged Wanderer Ground site.

Also agreed. NIMBYs are going to fight tooth-and-nail regardless. I'm surprised the pop-up stadium was approved as painlessly as it was.

Originally Posted by Acajack

You seem to be insinuating that millennials can't be interested in the CFL. While this may be true in some cities it's certainly not true in all of them. It's definitely not the case in Ottawa where the Redblacks are still a bit of a "new thing" that's cool - a Halifax CFL club would have the same new car smell.

I'm insinuating that millennials are currently less-interested in the league than boomers, and the Maritimes is a region rife with boomers with fewer millennials. Halifax, at least, is the best city in the region for finding young people (thanks in part to the universities). If the stadium is nowhere near either university I can't imagine how easy it would be for many millennials to reach the stadium.

[GernB]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Unless I'm mistaken, the article is trying to say the Stamps would play at a refurbished McMahon, not the fieldhouse.

What I got from it as well. Let's hope it meets a better fate than the last time a McMahon reno was proposed as part of an Olympic bid. 50,000 all-seater with new concessions...watered down to 11,000 new seats in a 38,000 seat stadium, no new concessions, etc...

[elly63]

Some thoughts on renos: Scott Mitchell of the Ti-Cats explains re: the new THF

How can building new stands on the north side of Ivor Wynne Stadium not cost more than renovating the current ones?

And how can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line?

Those were among the nagging questions after it was revealed last week that plans for the Pan Am Stadium on the current site of Ivor Wynne now call for the entire north stands to be torn down and rebuilt, instead of being refurbished atop the current infrastructure.

“This is absolutely and positively the most cost-efficient and responsible decision,” Ticat president Scott Mitchell answered Wednesday. “This isn’t a good thing, it’s a great thing.”

By agreeing to the reduced seat inventory, the Ticats made a major concession to Infrastructure Ontario to keep construction costs at the original estimate.

And, Mitchell says, potential builders will welcome the idea of constructing the north stands from the ground up, rather than trying to work around existing flaws, many of which are major.

“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”

[GernB]

Yesterday's Calgary Herald says $50 million in renovations for McMahon Stadium as part of the 2026 Winter Olympics bid.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by GernB

Yesterday's Calgary Herald says $50 million in renovations for McMahon Stadium as part of the 2026 Winter Olympics bid.

Yep

The city eventually decided to release the slides, which peg the cost of sports venues and media facilities for a 2026 Olympic Games at $733 million, including a $272-million field house, $80 million in upgrades to the BMO Centre, $55 million for a “Hall F Expansion” at BMO Centre, $10 million in upgrades to the Saddledome and $50 million for McMahon Stadium.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by GernB

Yesterday's Calgary Herald says $50 million in renovations for McMahon Stadium as part of the 2026 Winter Olympics bid.

That doesn't sound good. Just to throw out a few inaccurate numbers off the top of my head to put things in perspective, the Ottawa stadium was about 100-120 million, Cohon said the Moncton stadium would be about 100 million to get it up to snuff IIRC. THF cost 145 million.

By that time McMahon will need a new scoreboard, artificial turf, 50 million won't do much. I hate when people around here use the term lipstick on a pig but I think in this case with that amount of money that's what it will be.

Actually it's madness to spend that type of money on a field house and not include a proper football setup, maybe it's just blackmail by the city to put the Flames in their place.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

The city eventually decided to release the slides, which peg the cost of sports venues and media facilities for a 2026 Olympic Games at $733 million, including a $272-million field house, $80 million in upgrades to the BMO Centre, $55 million for a “Hall F Expansion” at BMO Centre, $10 million in upgrades to the Saddledome and $50 million for McMahon Stadium.

I'm probably alone on this but that is a joke.

[esquire]

If Calgary "needs" (air quotes) a hockey arena and football stadium so much, then why is the conversation stuck on this nearly $300 million fieldhouse? It's useless for the Flames and Stamps, and is really only incidentally useful for a potential winter Olympics.

This fieldhouse sounds like a solution in search of a problem. It's an exorbitant amount of money to pay for what will ultimately be a community sports facility.