ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Since maddawg is shit stirring (j/k) let me chime in, but on anther development.

Howell Mill & 14th Street - "Interlock": the discussion began here:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7979721&postcount=5804

I do not recall talking about the 1,500 parking spaces, although could have overlooked it. 1,500 spaces at first glance does seem substantial despite the project size. Any idea if the hotel is included in the rendering? From the quotes in the article "a 140 key hotel is also in the works" makes me think it could be a separate building from the rendering. So we have 1,500 spaces for 140-key hotel, 190k sq ft of office space, 90k sq ft of retail, 342 apartments, 40 condos, and 18 townhomes. All of which I presume shares 1,500 spaces.



Pretty sure most people were reacting to the general design/aesthetics, street interaction, mix of uses, and how the size was appropriate for its location and surrounding environment than anything else. It is kind of interesting that West Midtown, despite lacking transit options, having an abundance of parking spaces, is still somehow creating one of the best walkable environments in the entire city.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I have bit my tongue since this was announced November 8th. I would have thought all of the die hard anti-fuqua urbanites would have assembled a militia to prevent a suburban developer, SJ Collins, from getting there hands on this property. Take a look at their website: http://sjcollinsent.com. Not one urban development and all consist of surface parking and big box retailers.

Let's examine the site plan released May of this year (see below). Did anyone look at the # of required parking and the # of provided parking spots for the retail and residential sites. SJ Collins is providing 15% more parking spaces than is required for the retail sites and 21% more for the residential sites.

Not one person has posted anything other than praise for this development when they are planning to add almost 1,500 PARKING SPACES. Again, I totally respect everyone's opinion, but the lack of consistency boggles my mind. Especially when Madison Yards and Underground developments have been demonized. Help me understand your logic...

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but do you not see the difference between this project, which is decent amount of density with two screened parking decks, no current parking, and no heavy rail access, vs the two you listed? People's issues with those projects were not with the projects themselves, but certain aspects of the projects. People questioned Madison Yard's site layout and dead space, which I won't rehash, but can be found if you'd like to re-read those comments. Other people had issues w/ the Underground's massive addition of parking on a site that already had plenty of parking, plus plenty of 3rd party parking, plus nearby access to multiple heavy rail transit stations.

I would look at each project in its own context.

[testarossa50]

@Street Advocate if you study the rendering and the site plan you can see the hotel is the black portion of the building on the far left side of the rendering.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

I do not recall talking about the 1,500 parking spaces, although could have overlooked it. 1,500 spaces at first glance does seem substantial despite the project size. Any idea if the hotel is included in the rendering? From the quotes in the article "a 140 key hotel is also in the works" makes me think it could be a separate building from the rendering. So we have 1,500 spaces for 140-key hotel, 190k sq ft of office space, 90k sq ft of retail, 342 apartments, 40 condos, and 18 townhomes. All of which I presume shares 1,500 spaces.

Pretty sure most people were reacting to the general design/aesthetics, street interaction, mix of uses, and how the size was appropriate for its location and surrounding environment than anything else.

Mornin' SA - For the record I don't have a problem with either the Interlock or The Underground development from a design or parking perspective. If I remember correctly, you and most of the other people here were less than pleased WRS is adding 2000 additional parking spaces. WRS cited they needed the additional 2000 spaces because the current parking garages are 90%+ utilized. Below are details on the size and scope of The Underground project:

https://atlanta.curbed.com/2017/3/9/14865536/underground-atlanta-plans-redevelopment-wrs

According to the drawings, which date back to June (but haven’t been released publicly until now), the four-block development could potentially include nearly 2.5 million square feet of new construction.

The proposal includes 1,000 residential units divided into six towers, each with rooftop pools and amenity decks. A hotel tower at Peachtree and Wall streets would provide 320 rooms.

At ground level, a new grocery store and more than 250,000 square feet of retail and service uses would mask parking garages to house more than 2,000 cars.

Just spit ballin', but The Underground appears to be 300 - 400% bigger than The Interlock project. However the consensus here is:

WRS/2000 parking spaces = Bad
SJ Collins/1500 parking spaces = Good

I am sure most will respond The Underground is practically on top of a MARTA station. So if you live there, work there, shop there or stay there - YOU DON'T NEED A CAR.

So what happens if I want to live in city and rent an apartment there, but your job is located off Sugarloaf Parkway in Gwinnett? What happens if I am a business interested in leasing office space, but most of my candidate pool lives in North Fulton, Cobb County and Gwinnett County? What happens if I am a hotel developer and want to build a 350 key 4 star hotel targeting business travelers. Parking is necessary because most guest will need a car to visit customers all over Atlanta and day trips to AL and TN.

Again I don't understand the logic where you are OK with 1500 parking in West Midtown, but 2,000 additional spaces for the 2.5 Million sqft Underground development blows everyone's mind????

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

It is kind of interesting that West Midtown, despite lacking transit options, having an abundance of parking spaces, is still somehow creating one of the best walkable environments in the entire city.

SA - I am going to put this quote into the "Regrettable Quotes" file cabinet for future reference. EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID is what a couple of us here have been harping...pleading. The fact is: you can have walkable environments in areas lacking transit options and with an abundance of parking.

I would also argue smart people who care about this city, should view parking as a necessary stop gap until the entire Atlanta metro embraces mass transit. Furthermore I believe it is more productive not to target developers and force them reduce and/or eliminate parking, but to focus your efforts on the State, City and County leaders to make mass transit funding a priority.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

@Street Advocate if you study the rendering and the site plan you can see the hotel is the black portion of the building on the far left side of the rendering.

I wasn't sure if the site plan changed since the initial release. IIRC, the site plan showed an additional building in the southeast of the parcel that was not included in the renderings.

[A-town]

Originally Posted by montydawg

Those train tracks are owned by Norfolk southern and unfortunately it is a bitch to convince them to build objects over their right of way. westside provisions did it, but they have property on both sides. Seems like it would have been an uphill battle to get this done.

O I wouldn't doubt it. Train tracks unfortunately segregate neighborhoods. There’s an empty lot on Bishop Street. It borders the train tracks and Target. I hope the developer that buys that parcels builds a bridge to reconnect this area to Atlantic Station. That is of course with the blessings of Norfolk Southern.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Yea, there is a way, it happened, and it happens all the time. Location, frontage, sizes, etc. all play a part in what people will pay for land. There are lots in Midtown that are currently listed for $3.0 M and $7.7 M an acre, there is a lot on Ponce / Moreland listed for $4.2 M / acre. This is all significantly higher than the Civic Center site, just as the Civic Center site sold for a higher amount than Turner Field. It is not surprising that Carter / GSU got this land, along with a stadium that would have to be re-purposed or torn down, at that price. I'm not sure what relevance your RFK Stadium example adds, other than to accentuate that a large stadium is an albatross that would drive down the land value for most buyers as they have to take into account demo costs. I'm not sure why there is a struggle to understand these concepts.

It makes complete sense to me. However you seem to be struggling on why I would post the RFK example. Maybe I operate at a "different" level of reading comprehension, but I would think you/anyone would have easily connected the facts I provided on RFK's $800K yearly maintenance cost to your quote below.

Originally Posted by ATL_J

...- upkeep would be unfeasible.

I think it is reasonable to extrapolate the yearly maintenance cost for Turner Field would be < $200K a year. Considering the CoA budget for 2017 was $637 Million. The $200K cost would only be 0.0003% of the CoA's budget for 2017 had they not sold. So I think your belief, "upkeep would be unfeasible" is not just unreasonable, but wrong.

Your lot examples with corresponding location and prices are completely reasonable. However is not reasonable for the Summerhill project to sell for $425,000 an acre and the Civic Center project to sell for $1,550,000 an acre.

You realize that is:
365% DIFFERENCE

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

SA - I am going to put this quote into the "Regrettable Quotes" file cabinet for future reference. EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID is what a couple of us here have been harping...pleading. The fact is: you can have walkable environments in areas lacking transit options and with an abundance of parking.

Nothing regrettable in my quote. You can certainly create a walkable environment with an abundance of parking. The amount of parking is likely not necessary, will lead to more congestion, and you could create an even more walkable environment with reduced parking at that location. West Midtown included, although it is one of the best examples of walkability in the city, that bar is extremely low. West Midtown's walkability already could certainly be improved with reduced public parking and/or better street engagements in more areas. West Midtown is a prime example of a growing neighborhood where already will have lessons learned of what works well and what should be avoided in other growing neighborhoods in Atlanta. What's CRAZY is that we shouldn't even need to learn from our own neighborhoods, as this is tried and true in cities throughout the world, there are publications about good urban design, and it should be followed for these growing neighborhoods in Atlanta.

To add, reviewing the amount of land use consumed by surface and above grade parking in Atlanta is likely greater than the amount of land consumed for mixed use and high rise living in the city. Simply put, we are using more land to park our cars than to actually live. That is not the type of environment people should be forced to live in by developers who create environments based on what they think is best, including making a profit. We should be creating an environment that encourages fewer trips by car with shorter distances and duration by allowing more people to live and work closer to destinations.

That said, parking in general is not the nemesis, although the abundance of (above ground) parking, streetscaping, and poor design of engagement at the street level are major issues in the city that lead to additional congestion throughout the city. If I were in the planning department or with the NPU for the Howell Mill & 14th project, I would certainly pressure the developer to reduce their parking impact without reducing density. I would also inquire about the eastern and southern facades to the development, street creations, and engagement on what is essentially now a super block (I cannot locate the old site plan at this moment to recall what they proposed, potentially extending Ethel or a new north/southbound street from 14th).

[jwbab]

The building permit was issued today for the Hampton Inn & Suites at 1231 West Peachtree in Midtown.

https://aca3.accela.com/ATLANTA_GA/Cap/C...gencyCode=ATLANTA_GA&IsToShowInspection=

[daharris80]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I think it is reasonable to extrapolate the yearly maintenance cost for Turner Field would be < $200K a year. Considering the CoA budget for 2017 was $637 Million. The $200K cost would only be 0.0003% of the CoA's budget for 2017 had they not sold. So I think your belief, "upkeep would be unfeasible" is not just unreasonable, but wrong.

Two points:

1. To hold up RFK (which by the way wasn't vacant but was home to the DC United in the MLS) as an example of anything the residents around Turner Field want for the next 20 years is just crazy. That's exactly why the City mobilized after the Braves left to do something with Turner Field and its parking lots. Even if the maintenance costs are feasible, that doesn't make it beneficial for residents.

2. That gets to the price. You seem to ignore that there were multiple proposals made to the City. So it wasn't exactly a backroom deal to give Georgia State a great deal on real estate.

Even if Georgia State got the land for less than what other were offering the deal also came with commitments to develop/redevelop the area. Again, this is exactly what the residents wanted. Could the city have sold the land to the highest bidder (perhaps a land speculator) with no regard to what their intentions were for the area? Yes, but it is perfectly within the City's right, and some would say responsibility, to look beyond a big payday and ensure the development of this area would benefit the residents who had been neglected for years. What a shame it would have been if the City had looked exclusively at the payday (assuming they didn't) and taken money from this area and used it to improve other areas of the City. How can anyone not see what Georgia State has done for Downtown in the last decade and not consider that the City picked a partner it trusted?

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but do you not see the difference between this project, which is decent amount of density with two screened parking decks, no current parking, and no heavy rail access, vs the two you listed? People's issues with those projects were not with the projects themselves, but certain aspects of the projects. People questioned Madison Yard's site layout and dead space, which I won't rehash, but can be found if you'd like to re-read those comments. Other people had issues w/ the Underground's massive addition of parking on a site that already had plenty of parking, plus plenty of 3rd party parking, plus nearby access to multiple heavy rail transit stations.

I would look at each project in its own context.

O - I am very serious. I will assume your first sentence refers to the The Interlock development. I will also assume you do not have any insider info on the project as well.

Based on the project site plan (below). It appears the development will utilize two parking garages and surface parking for the small shops by Westside Ironworks. It is TBD on how well screened the parking decks are because the developer has only released two pictures detailing three sides of 1 building.

Also if we look at the site plan below for the two multi-family towers (labeled bldg 400 and 500), they are only residential buildings and do not include any retail. Therefore, 1/2 of the project is designed without active uses on every street and has several dead spaces. Which is consistently the argument against Fuqua.

Interesting Facts:

• InterLock Development - 14th & Howell Mill is 1.6 Miles from the Midtown Arts Center MARTA station.

• Madison Yards- 905 Memorial Drive is 1.7Miles from Kings Center MARTA station.

To recap, both The Interlock and Madison Yards developments are located approximately the same distance from a MARTA station, include screened parking garages and both have streets w/o active uses/dead space. So let me end, where I began: Why are people fine with The InterLock development, but find Madison Yards so troubling?

ATL_J - this is just friendly banter, so I am not offended you asked if I was being serious in your first sentence. It's all good.

[joecool]

Originally Posted by jwbab

The building permit was issued today for the Hampton Inn & Suites at 1231 West Peachtree in Midtown.

https://aca3.accela.com/ATLANTA_GA/Cap/C...gencyCode=ATLANTA_GA&IsToShowInspection=

Is it just me or is that the ugliest building ever...

[Pemgin]

It's not pretty, but it's not entirely ugly and at least it has a small footprint and its parking is completely on a podium.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by daharris80

Two points:

1. To hold up RFK (which by the way wasn't vacant but was home to the DC United in the MLS) as an example of anything the residents around Turner Field want for the next 20 years is just crazy. That's exactly why the City mobilized after the Braves left to do something with Turner Field and its parking lots. Even if the maintenance costs are feasible, that doesn't make it beneficial for residents.

2. That gets to the price. You seem to ignore that there were multiple proposals made to the City. So it wasn't exactly a backroom deal to give Georgia State a great deal on real estate.

Even if Georgia State got the land for less than what other were offering the deal also came with commitments to develop/redevelop the area. Again, this is exactly what the residents wanted. Could the city have sold the land to the highest bidder (perhaps a land speculator) with no regard to what their intentions were for the area? Yes, but it is perfectly within the City's right, and some would say responsibility, to look beyond a big payday and ensure the development of this area would benefit the residents who had been neglected for years. What a shame it would have been if the City had looked exclusively at the payday (assuming they didn't) and taken money from this area and used it to improve other areas of the City. How can anyone not see what Georgia State has done for Downtown in the last decade and not consider that the City picked a partner it trusted?

Slow down DH80 - we are just chewin' the fat. No need to come in heated.

1. Shivtim did bring it to my attention DC United has been playing in RFK since 1996 and I thanked him. So given DC is spending $800K a year in maintenance costs for a functioning football stadium in the 4th most expensive city in the US, it is reasonable to believe it would only cost < $200K to cover the maintenance costs on a non-functioning baseball field in Atlanta, GA. Agree?

Since ATL_J has questioned my intelligence/sanity twice today, it is probably appropriate to ask you to please show me where I said the CoA should not sell Turner Field for 20 years because I don't believe I ever said that. I am curious if you directed this much virtuosity to the leaders of CoA to sell the Civic Center as you directed at me today. How many years has the Civic Center sat empty/under utilized?

2. Can you kindly provide me the link where I can read the other bids for Turner Field? Apparently my Google Search is broken because mine is saying ZERO results.

If anyone here believes there is not any shady shit going on at City Hall then you are a foolish person. It is happening in this city and every city. Also didn't Atlanta not have two major scandals recently with the Public Schools and Procurement Office? So me questioning the land valuation is not baseless, but it is also my civic duty. Frankly it is insulting for you to bring it up to start with.

The bottom line is, I din't give a damn the CoA sold 1/2 of the Turner Field land to GSU for $425K an acre. Hell they could have given to them for free for all I care. Where I have a problem is with the COA selling half of the the land to Carter and Oakwood Development for $425K an acre. These are private companies - not a State University. So let's talk about land valuation. This where facts and not verbose are all that matter.

The sale of Turner Field closed - Thursday, January 05, 2017. Then September of this year (9 months later) Carter and Oakwood sell a 3.3 acre parcel to Aspen Heights for $6 fucking Million Benjamins for a student housing project and you can find the details on the link below (look for acquisition costs). To put the cherry on top , Aspen Heights get's an additional $2.5 million tax abatement from Invest Atlanta.

Now I am no finance major, but if I had a real estate agent price/sell my land at $425K an acre and I see 9 months later the very same land sold for almost $2 Million an acre. Let me tell you what I would do: First, I would find that bottom feeder realtor and make like it is Cinco de Mayo and string him up by his low hangers and Pinata him until I got my candy. OK.

http://www.boarddocs.com/ga/investatlant...cement%20Fact%20Sheet%209-15-17%20v2.pdf

I don't mind you coming for me (even aggressively), but next time kindly come correct!

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

It makes complete sense to me. However you seem to be struggling on why I would post the RFK example. Maybe I operate at a "different" level of reading comprehension, but I would think you/anyone would have easily connected the facts I provided on RFK's $800K yearly maintenance cost to your quote below.


I think it is reasonable to extrapolate the yearly maintenance cost for Turner Field would be < $200K a year. Considering the CoA budget for 2017 was $637 Million. The $200K cost would only be 0.0003% of the CoA's budget for 2017 had they not sold. So I think your belief, "upkeep would be unfeasible" is not just unreasonable, but wrong.

Your lot examples with corresponding location and prices are completely reasonable. However is not reasonable for the Summerhill project to sell for $425,000 an acre and the Civic Center project to sell for $1,550,000 an acre.

You realize that is:
365% DIFFERENCE

As I said before, land sales are based on a variety of factors. Size, location, frontage, etc. I'm not sure why you're struggling with the fact that a large track of land surrounded primarily by negative land uses and with a large stadium that is a net-negative for pretty much anyone outside of Georgia State (who is putting in $26 million to renovate the stadium itself) would sell less on a per acre basis than a smaller site that is bounded by Midtown, Downtown, and the Old Fourth Ward, and has great real estate fundamentals.

As I mentioned earlier, lots in Midtown are selling more per acre than the Civic Center, imagine that! People value those lots more? How could that be?!

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

As I said before, land sales are based on a variety of factors. Size, location, frontage, etc. I'm not sure why you're struggling with the fact that a large track of land surrounded primarily by negative land uses and with a large stadium that is a net-negative for pretty much anyone outside of Georgia State (who is putting in $26 million to renovate the stadium itself) would sell less on a per acre basis than a smaller site that is bounded by Midtown, Downtown, and the Old Fourth Ward, and has great real estate fundamentals.

As I mentioned earlier, lots in Midtown are selling more per acre than the Civic Center, imagine that! People value those lots more? How could that be?!

This is from my post to daharris80.

The sale of Turner Field closed - Thursday, January 05, 2017. Then September of this year (9 months later) Carter and Oakwood sell a 3.3 acre parcel to Aspen Heights for $6 Million for a student housing project and you can find the details on the link below (look for acquisition costs). To put the cherry on top , Aspen Heights get's an additional $2.5 million tax abatement from Invest Atlanta.

Let me repeat, Carter paid COA in Jan of this year $425K an acre. 9 months later (Sept 2017) they sell 3.3 acres to Aspen Heights for $6 Million or almost $2 Million an acre for student housing project. You don't see a problem?

http://www.boarddocs.com/ga/investatlant...cement%20Fact%20Sheet%209-15-17%20v2.pdf

[Libertarian]

"A politician who is poor is a poor politician." - Former Mexican minister of agriculture

[Pemgin]

That's very cynical.

[atlantaguy]

The insults and Romper Room behavior continues, without me even daring to post lately.

[ATLmangum]

Originally Posted by joecool

Is it just me or is that the ugliest building ever...

Not the prettiest, but better than what is there today and much needed for that area. Great location and adds good infill. This part of Midrown has gotten some much needed life.