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  #841  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Unless i'm mistaken, Mayor Savage is also on the record saying that there are four potential stadium locations - none of which are Downtown.
Exactly. This and the requirements for the stadium to be self sustaining (revenue from associated new retail/commercial/residential development) leads me to suspect a suburban location like Bayers Lake, Dartmouth Crossing or Bedford Commons.
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  #842  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 6:10 PM
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This talk about the population of Halifax got me wondering:
Why isn't Halifax a large city ?
It's been around before the begining of the country, and you think of all the large cities on the US east coast.
You would think Canada would have at least one large center on the east coast (like Vancouver on the west)
Anyway - just a tangental mind wondering of mine.
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  #843  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 6:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craner View Post
This talk about the population of Halifax got me wondering:
Why isn't Halifax a large city ?
It's been around before the begining of the country, and you think of all the large cities on the US east coast.
You would think Canada would have at least one large center on the east coast (like Vancouver on the west)
Anyway - just a tangental mind wondering of mine.
One simple answer is that it's not an unavoidable port of entry on the east coast like Vancouver is on the west coast. Because of the St. Lawrence River and Seaway systems other cities like Quebec City, Montreal and Toronto can also serve as ports of entry to Canada from the Atlantic Ocean.

Halifax's transportation links to central Canada were never quite as optimal than they might have been, either.
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  #844  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 6:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craner View Post
This talk about the population of Halifax got me wondering:
Why isn't Halifax a large city ?
It's been around before the begining of the country, and you think of all the large cities on the US east coast.
You would think Canada would have at least one large center on the east coast (like Vancouver on the west)
Anyway - just a tangental mind wondering of mine.
Lots of reasons.

To my mind however, the main reason is the Saint Lawrence River.

There is no large riverine artery to the heartland of the continent along the US eastern seaboard (I'm not including the Mississippi here because it's on the Gulf Coast). In Canada however, the Saint Lawrence provided ready access to the center of the continent and the main axis of development in the country has always been in the Saint Lawrence river valley. The Maritimes therefore could be easily bypassed.

Of course, Halifax & Saint John have ice free ports which are important, but because of the shape of the continent, it's actually shorter to transport goods to Ontario via New York or Baltimore than Halifax in the winter time. Without protectionist legislation, Ontario industries would naturally use the cheapest route.

Finally, Halifax was kneecapped in WW1 by the explosion and Saint John was crippled in the 1880s by the great fire. These events took at least a couple of decades to recover from and these two cities lost growth potential at a critical time in the history of the country.

In addition, federal economic policies have never been developed with the Maritimes in mind. I'm thinking here of Sir John A McDonald's national policy from the 1880s designed to spur western growth (but at the same time instituting trade policies that stifled traditional Maritime trade with New England). C.D. Howe's procurement policies during WW2 favoured building an industrial heartland in Ontario over maintaining industries in the Maritimes as well.

There are other issues as well, but you get the point. The Maritimes could arguably have been better off never joining Canada in the first place.......
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  #845  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 6:50 PM
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Thanks for the history lesson guys, I'm glad Halifax is as big as it is then.
We should be learning about this in school.
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  #846  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 7:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
One simple answer is that it's not an unavoidable port of entry on the east coast like Vancouver is on the west coast. Because of the St. Lawrence River and Seaway systems other cities like Quebec City, Montreal and Toronto can also serve as ports of entry to Canada from the Atlantic Ocean.

Halifax's transportation links to central Canada were never quite as optimal than they might have been, either.
One historical piece of trivia is that the Maritimes were never really a part of Canada until they artificially became one in 1867. They were separate colonies that weren't aligned with St. Lawrence and Great Lakes trade in any significant way. There were more imports and exports to and from the UK and US than there were to Canada. If you went to a big city from the Maritimes you went to Boston, New York, or London, not Montreal. It was very economically harmful to the Maritimes when trade to the US and even UK was eventually cut off in order to promote trade within Canada. Halifax was in a great place in the 19th century to trade with other Atlantic cities (more or less on the shortest path between New York and London). It was not in a great place to trade with Montreal or Toronto. During Halifax's "golden age" of the mid-19th century the most successful enterprises were those like Cunard Line which were focused on Atlantic and Caribbean trade.

A similar hypothetical situation: imagine if Russia took over Denmark in 1900. How would it have turned out differently? All of the Scandinavian countries are highly successful on their own. The parts of Finland that Russia conquered are now backwaters.

In any case Halifax was obviously never going to be Canada's East Coast Vancouver or New York or whatever.

But then if you look at something like the urban/rural split in the Maritimes it's obvious there's something weird going on. Here in BC we have 690,000 people living in rural areas. The Maritimes have half the population of BC but over 800,000 people living in rural areas. The cities there are very underdeveloped relative to the rest of Canada and relative to the resources of the region. In an alternate universe with better economic development within Canada I think the balance easily could have been different and maybe Halifax would have been a Calgary-sized city instead of the size it is today. Saint John also could have been much larger.

Last edited by someone123; Nov 18, 2017 at 7:31 PM.
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  #847  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 7:57 PM
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^^^
q12 wrote that Nova Scotia contains 2/3 (or 600,000) of its population within Halifax/Dartmouth urban area but you suggest that the Maritimes have a high proportion rural population & underdeveloped cities as compared to rest of Canada...very confusing

Anyway, I'd imagine if Nova Scotia coal mining & steel industries didn't diminish in economic success over the years, maybe Saskatchewan wouldn't have a larger GDP & a much higher income/disposable income per capita than the 3 Maritimes provinces combined today.
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  #848  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskScraper View Post
^^^
q12 wrote that Nova Scotia contains 2/3 (or 600,000) of its population within Halifax/Dartmouth urban area but you suggest that the Maritimes have a high proportion rural population & underdeveloped cities as compared to rest of Canada...very confusing
That 600,000 figure is for the population living within central Nova Scotia, within an easy 60-75 minute drive of the city. The actual CMA population of the city is really only about 415,000.

Similarly his map of Moncton showed a regional population of 250,000 within easy access of the city, but Moncton's actual CMA population is 150,000.
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  #849  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
One historical piece of trivia is that the Maritimes were never really a part of Canada until they artificially became one in 1867. They were separate colonies that weren't aligned with St. Lawrence and Great Lakes trade in any significant way. There were more imports and exports to and from the UK and US than there were to Canada. If you went to a big city from the Maritimes you went to Boston, New York, or London, not Montreal. It was very economically harmful to the Maritimes when trade to the US and even UK was eventually cut off in order to promote trade within Canada. Halifax was in a great place in the 19th century to trade with other Atlantic cities (more or less on the shortest path between New York and London). It was not in a great place to trade with Montreal or Toronto. During Halifax's "golden age" of the mid-19th century the most successful enterprises were those like Cunard Line which were focused on Atlantic and Caribbean trade.

A similar hypothetical situation: imagine if Russia took over Denmark in 1900. How would it have turned out differently? All of the Scandinavian countries are highly successful on their own. The parts of Finland that Russia conquered are now backwaters.

In any case Halifax was obviously never going to be Canada's East Coast Vancouver or New York or whatever.

But then if you look at something like the urban/rural split in the Maritimes it's obvious there's something weird going on. Here in BC we have 690,000 people living in rural areas. The Maritimes have half the population of BC but over 800,000 people living in rural areas. The cities there are very underdeveloped relative to the rest of Canada and relative to the resources of the region. In an alternate universe with better economic development within Canada I think the balance easily could have been different and maybe Halifax would have been a Calgary-sized city instead of the size it is today. Saint John also could have been much larger.
Alternate history scenarios are always interesting to contemplate.

Confederation was bad for Halifax and Saint John, no question but I would argue that it was even worse for SJ than Haligon.

Just look at a map. SJ is on the Bay of Fundy, which is oriented on a northeast/southwest axis. When you head out of the bay, you are heading straight for Boston, which really should be the regional metropole for both New England and the Maritimes.

Confederation (and the subsequent National Policy) suddenly meant that commerce from SJ to Boston was discouraged, and that commerce to Montreal was preferred. To get to Montreal however, a ship would have to circumnavigate all of NS and then travel through the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and then up the Saint Lawrence River to reach it's destination. This made no geographic sense.

To make things worse for SJ, confederation made the development of new rail communications connecting the colonies imperative. It was important to have a rail line between Montreal and Halifax but Saint John is not directly along the route. Moncton however is. Moncton took advantage of this, firstly by becoming the headquarters of the Intercolonial Railway (ICR), subsequently also being declared the eastern terminus of the National Transcontinental Railway (NTR) and finally being declared the regional HQ for CNR when these two railways were combined in the 1910s.

Moncton is also on the Trans Canada Highway (but SJ is not). The regional road and railway infrastructure continues to pass through Moncton today. It could actually be argued that although confederation was bad for SJ and Halifax, that it has actually been good for Moncton.......
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  #850  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2017, 3:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post

Halifax's transportation links to central Canada were never quite as optimal than they might have been, either.
That is the real reason. Halifax is the closest port to the north Atlantic shipping lanes. It should have become the biggest port in eastern Canada by a long shot but politics always nixed investment in rail to points west. There are a lot more voters in Quebec.

Even that paled next to the policies that forbid trade between the Maritimes and New England after Confederation. It was an economic catastrophe for the region; one that it never recovered from. To put it in perspective, what would happen to Ontario/Quebec if one suddenly told them they could only trade with other Canadian provinces. This history is never told in central Canada, of course.
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  #851  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 11:31 PM
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So, CTV News is hot on the story of a new CFL ready stadium in metro Halifax. They ferreted out three of the four competing sites to host the new stadium and, as I suspected, none of them are on the peninsula.

1) - Shannon Park - apparently not seriously being considered this time around because the stadium will have to be privately financed and self sustaining. The site would be a poor sell for the needed associated commercial/retail/residential component.
2) - Bayers Lake - have been approached by the CFL group. The site could be ready to build on by the summer of 2018. Not the first choice however because of poor access and traffic gridlock which already exists at Bayers Lake.
3) - Dartmouth Crossing - apparently the first choice of the mayor. Have also been contacted by the CFL group. Easy road access on the edge of town with lots of nearby attractions (like IKEA) that could benefit from synergy from the presence of the stadium. New hotels already being built in the area. Since the stadium would have to be self sustaining, it would likely be easy to justify building and leasing the associated commercial/residential/retail component for the project in this popular area to make the stadium viable.
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  #852  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 12:53 AM
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How about soccer? Have Haligonians expressed any sort of interest in that? To me, that seems the smarter direction.

I just don't see the CFL, or football in general, being a particularly hot ticket at the moment.

A major investment from taxpayers in a stadium whose primary tenant only uses it 9 or 10 times a year. Lots of travel. I dunno, it's as far from a slam dunk as one could imagine. Sorry for mixing my metaphors...
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  #853  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 3:04 AM
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^ Halifax is putting up a temporary stadium for soccer. There ate details in this thread. That facility would be too small for football, though.
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  #854  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 3:42 AM
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A major investment from taxpayers in a stadium whose primary tenant only uses it 9 or 10 times a year.
Why, why, why do people always say this. Who the hell, in Canada, would build a sports facility to be used 10 times a year? Is THF used 10 times a year?
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  #855  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 3:48 AM
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How about soccer? Have Haligonians expressed any sort of interest in that? To me, that seems the smarter direction.

I just don't see the CFL, or football in general, being a particularly hot ticket at the moment.
Why and why again?
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  #856  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 6:30 PM
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Why and why again?
because the CFL is dead and soccer is #1,2 and 3 in Canada. Didnt you know?

If Ottawa is any example of how expansion teams fair in the CFL than halifax will do great. It's the only pro team that the entire city,province and all of the maritimes can get behind and I think it will be the Riders of the east.

Yes I will admit the CFL and football in general is on a down swing right now but that's pro sports. 4-5 years ago the CFL was doing amazing. BC,Winnipeg,Edmonton,Toronto,Sask and Calgary were all hovering around that 30K mark.
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Last edited by Oilkountry; Nov 21, 2017 at 6:44 PM.
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  #857  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 7:17 PM
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What I really find interesting about this article is one line

Quote:
Municipal staff pegged the cost of a stadium at $60 million, and noted the need to cost-share with the private sector and other levels of government.
That's less than half the budget for Tim Hortons field. What do you get for 60M?

Stade saputo? Basically an aluminum version of THF with less bells and whistles? I don't even think you could do an upper deck.

https://www.building.ca/building/halifax...-city-wont-lead-effort-mayor/1003737924/
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  #858  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 7:28 PM
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^ Good question. I think all you could expect for $60 million is an old-school, two uncovered grandstands and a clubhouse type of stadium. Sort of a stripped down, base model version of THF if you can imagine such a thing. Or looking at it another way, you could describe it as a beefed up version of Moncton's 10,000 seater which apparently cost $17 million.

It wouldn't be much, but it could be what is needed to get football off the ground... BMO Field is an example of a stadium that was pretty modest initially but grew over time.
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  #859  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 7:45 PM
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^ Good question. I think all you could expect for $60 million is an old-school, two uncovered grandstands and a clubhouse type of stadium. Sort of a stripped down, base model version of THF if you can imagine such a thing.

It wouldn't be much, but it could be what is needed to get football off the ground... BMO Field is an example of a stadium that was pretty modest initially but grew over time.
Actually BMO is kind of a perfect example of what ypu get for 60M. well BMO phase 1 anyway.

I'm sure you're right, They can get a functional stadium together for that price. If IGF and NMS are a benz then THF and TD place are mid range chevys. A base model Honda Civic with the option add some leather seat covers and command start later is on the table for Halifax, Worked out for Toronto and Montreal as BMO and Saputo are great stadiums now. That is Unless the private sector comes up big.

One thing I do like is that the mayor is on board. Not with a bad attitude about it either he just wants a partnership instead of the Public taking on the bulk
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  #860  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 8:01 PM
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^ Good question. I think all you could expect for $60 million is an old-school, two uncovered grandstands and a clubhouse type of stadium. Sort of a stripped down, base model version of THF if you can imagine such a thing. Or looking at it another way, you could describe it as a beefed up version of Moncton's 10,000 seater which apparently cost $17 million.

It wouldn't be much, but it could be what is needed to get football off the ground... BMO Field is an example of a stadium that was pretty modest initially but grew over time.
Remember there was a rumor that the Atlantic Schooners (part 1) had the old scoreboard from the Patriots stored somewhere for the new stadium.
Maybe they can get some deals on used stadium parts. Atlanta's usually aren't that old
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