Do Canadians use the word county?

[Laceoflight]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

Great map. I wouldn't have thought Noyan was considered part of the Townships. Isn't Noyan where there is a border crossing to New York State? I would have thought the Townships starts a bit to the east as I find the Noyan area still within the South Shore Montreal gravitational pull

Noyan, Clarenceville, Pike River, parts of Stanbridge township and Saint-Armand are the only part of the province that were conceded as seigneuries in the 18th century (1733 - know as seigneuries of lake Champlain, precisely Noyan, Foucault and Saint-Armand) and later as townships. Those seigneuries were sparsely populated due to the insecurity at the border at that time (1783, first mention of the boundary, and loss of Lake Champlain for Canada. The border wasn't really fixed at the 45th parallel until the Webster-Ashburton treaty of 1842).

Thus, after 1783, those seigneuries were re-conceded as townships (mostly in 1790). It coincided with the massive arrival of Loyalists, and later the beginning of massive programmed immigration from the British islands.

By the way, I was born there, in the seigneurie of Noyan ;-)

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

We certainly use the word "county" in NB. Around Moncton, people refer to Albert County and Kent County all the time. Westmorland County is pretty much synonymous with "Moncton" itself, so is little used in common speech.

It depends a bit on whether or not the county has a major shire town or not. Albert County really doesn't, therefore the name remains in usage. Kings County however isn't used in everyday speech quite as much because that county has a large shire town (Sussex).

Carleton County is a bit of an exception perhaps. Woodstock is its shire town and the biggest population centre in it by far. But both in and out of town, Carleton County still has a strong presence in the region. While the county itself has no political power any more, it is a unifying aspect for the region from Woodstock to Florenceville and everywhere in between.

We even have our own dictionary.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Those are townships, though. It's not showing the counties. For example, my grandfather's family came from the township of Lingwick in Compton County (on the right of the map). The old county names have mostly been replaced by more French-sounding names for larger regions (Haut St-Francois etc.) but the federal government still some of them in electoral district names (e.g. Compton is still a federal electoral district).

A county in Quebec would be equivalent to a MRC (Municipalité régionale de comté). Those are relatively recent creations as opposed to the historic townships and as far as I know nobody ever refers to them.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by Laceoflight

Noyan, Clarenceville, Pike River, parts of Stanbridge township and Saint-Armand are the only part of the province that were conceded as seigneuries in the 18th century (1733 - know as seigneuries of lake Champlain, precisely Noyan, Foucault and Saint-Armand) and later as townships. Those seigneuries were sparsely populated due to the insecurity at the border at that time (1783, first mention of the boundary, and loss of Lake Champlain for Canada. The border wasn't really fixed at the 45th parallel until the Webster-Ashburton treaty of 1842).

Thus, after 1783, those seigneuries were re-conceded as townships (mostly in 1790). It coincided with the massive arrival of Loyalists, and later the beginning of massive programmed immigration from the British islands.

By the way, I was born there, in the seigneurie of Noyan ;-)

Thanks for the info. Ever been here:

https://goo.gl/maps/yav3MrTqkPF2

Leduc Drive on this photo is completely in the US with the border cairn on the north side but by the time you get to the open crossing to the west the border has crossed to the south side of the road. The border goes right through the border station which is shared by both countries.

It is described in this fascinating report (well fascinating to me) about 3/4 way down the website link.

http://www.clui.org/section/united-divide-a-linear-portrait-usacanada-border-2

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Very funny!! Muskoka is and always has been in Southern Ontario. Northerners get very upset when someone says that Muskoka is in Northern Ontario.

Plenty of northerners even get upset when you say Parry Sound is in the North! Although it is sometimes classified as "near-North" by the province. So more acceptable than when northwestern Ontarian's think that Sudbury (aka mini-Toronto) shouldn't even be considered as part of the North.

[jonny24]

I'm from Norfolk County*, and we do use them in Southern Ontario.

*Not a true county anymore. Norfolk was a county, got merged with Haldimand to form a RM, and then they were split into sing-tier municipalities, with no underlying towns or townships. Both of them immediately renamed themselves "County".

But yeah, we refer to neighboring counties all the time, not always by saying County but fairly often too. "Jim lives over the county line in Oxford, they get a snow day today." "I'm going to a farm auction over in Elgin". Norfolk specifically, when friends are back home for holidays you'll hear "are you in Norfolk this weekend?". Or people will identify their small town to others in the area, but when I'm in Hamilton where I live now and people ask where I'm from I say I'm from Norfolk. A common slang for those from here is "the 'Folk". Part of is that the biggest town is Simcoe, and everyone confuses it with Simcoe County or Lake Simcoe. And the only other town anyone has heard of is Port Dover, and that's far enough away from my place that it doesn't really work.

In my experience, in Norfolk the county "identity" is growing- Norfolk Tourism promoting the whole area, sports teams named after the county, etc.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

Same as the other Easterners, we'll use "county" here when we're talking about a place rural enough (if we can instead mention a city, that's what we'll do).

For example, I'd say to someone only somewhat familiar with the area that my grandfather lives in Shefford County (loose translation that's loose on purpose: my knowledge of local English is actually good enough that I would say "my grandfather lives in Shefford Township".) For someone less familiar I would say he lives outside Granby, or someone even less familiar I'd say he lives halfway between Mtl and Sherb.

You can see it on this map which happens to look a lot like your OP map. (His nearest go-to city is Granby; for a bigger city he has to go to Sherbrooke).

That map is ancient history, as far as l'Estrie/Cantons de l'Est is concerned. It has long since been discarded, along with the old seigneurial land division system lining the banks of the St. Laurent.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I'm from Norfolk County*, and we do use them in Southern Ontario.

*Not a true county anymore. Norfolk was a county, got merged with Haldimand to form a RM, and then they were split into sing-tier municipalities, with no underlying towns or townships. Both of them immediately renamed themselves "County".

But yeah, we refer to neighboring counties all the time, not always by saying County but fairly often too. "Jim lives over the county line in Oxford, they get a snow day today." "I'm going to a farm auction over in Elgin". Norfolk specifically, when friends are back home for holidays you'll hear "are you in Norfolk this weekend?". Or people will identify their small town to others in the area, but when I'm in Hamilton where I live now and people ask where I'm from I say I'm from Norfolk. A common slang for those from here is "the 'Folk". Part of is that the biggest town is Simcoe, and everyone confuses it with Simcoe County or Lake Simcoe. And the only other town anyone has heard of is Port Dover, and that's far enough away from my place that it doesn't really work.

In my experience, in Norfolk the county "identity" is growing- Norfolk Tourism promoting the whole area, sports teams named after the county, etc.

Interesting. In the last two years, and even just last month, I've explored Norfolk, Haldimand, Elgin and Oxford and most of their known towns by car and stopping for ice cream or whatever. Had no idea people were using the county term as much as you mention. But that's what happens when you grow up around the big city.

Where I am, a lot of people know of Halton, Peel, York and Durham Regions. But, particularly for people under 30, I'd guess most have no idea what the county next door is called or even that it's called a county. Those being Dufferin, Wellington, Simcoe, Northumberland and Kawartha.

Then again, I know a lot of people who grew up in say Mississauga in Peel Region and then moved to Oakville in their 20s and had no idea what region they were now living in (Halton).

And I know people who moved just outside the GTA to places like Alliston or Ancaster who had no idea they were now technically living in the Town of New Tecumseth or Hamilton. That was until they received their property tax bills. They didn't even know what town they were in let alone county.

And I wouldn't be surprised if you polled 100 random adults on the street in Burlington or Markham or Whitby if they could name the other cities/towns in their regions and the result was well under 50%. I bet at least a third of people in Brampton and Mississauga wouldn't know that Caledon is in the same region as them.

I wonder if that's the same for all those counties outside the GTA. Before two years ago I certainly couldn't tell you what's in the RM of Niagara other than The Falls, Niagara on the Lake, St. Catharines and Welland. Hell I didn't even know it was a RM and not a county.

And for Simcoe County all I knew was Barrie, Orillia and Wasaga. And I had already been driving up the 400 or 27 to the cottage in Tiny Township for 5 years at that point passing through other towns in Simcoe. And of course shopping in Penetang and Midland and fishing in Tay as well.

I suspect most people anywhere can't name all the towns in a county if there are more than a few. It is a boring subject after all. I'm just curious.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Laceoflight

By the way, I was born there, in the seigneurie of Noyan ;-)

I went there not too long ago for a relative's funeral. My mom's cousin lives on Chemin du Bord de l'eau (so close to the border the U.S. Route 2 bridge is right there when we look). Really nice area. Also I didn't recall how boating-oriented St-Paul-de-l'Île-aux-Noix was. Boat stores and marinas everywhere! I even "discovered" a few of those landfill "fingers" into the water with a street in the middle and houses on the side like we see in Florida! Very rare here (don't know how old those are but I'm pretty sure no one does that anymore anywhere).

It's within reasonable distance of Greater Mtl, so that's a good plus.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

That map is ancient history, as far as l'Estrie/Cantons de l'Est is concerned. It has long since been discarded, along with the old seigneurial land division system lining the banks of the St. Laurent.

Lots of these townships actually still exist as municipalities. And the lines you see on that map often still exist as well (sometimes even as their original township borders, sometimes as municipal borders nowadays).

For a map that's actually ancient history, a county map of Quebec, or a seigneureries map of Quebec, few of those divisions are still relevant. (And even then...)

[mistercorporate]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simcoe_County

[niwell]

I've noticed that many people in northern Ontario still refer to the Geographic Township they live in, particularly if it's outside a major municipality. In some cases individual townships are now municipalities, but that's quite rare. Many are parts of amalgamated single-tier municipalities (no upper/lower-tier in the North). Lots of others are unincorporated and the township name really has no relevance in any official capacity anymore.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simcoe_County

Yes, Simcoe County is huge with many towns. I wonder why the PCs didn't amalgamate more of those places.

[kirjtc2]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

We certainly use the word "county" in NB. Around Moncton, people refer to Albert County and Kent County all the time. Westmorland County is pretty much synonymous with "Moncton" itself, so is little used in common speech.

You're right, it completely depends on the county as to whether it's still in common use in NB. You still hear a lot about Carleton, Charlotte or Albert; but nobody up north in their right mind refers to "Gloucester County", and "Northumberland County" is more or less the same as "the Miramichi". County governments were abolished in the 60s and they're now little more than lines on a map.

I used to process applications for use of crown land in NB and there was an entry for "county". Some got it right, some misread it and put "Canada", a lot of French speakers (where "comté" is synonymous with electoral riding) put that down instead.

(and don't get me started on parishes...)

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by kirjtc2

You're right, it completely depends on the county as to whether it's still in common use in NB. You still hear a lot about Carleton, Charlotte or Albert; but nobody up north in their right mind refers to "Gloucester County", and "Northumberland County" is more or less the same as "the Miramichi". County governments were abolished in the 60s and they're now little more than lines on a map.

I used to process applications for use of crown land in NB and there was an entry for "county". Some got it right, some misread it and put "Canada", a lot of French speakers (where "comté" is synonymous with electoral riding) put that down instead.

Well the county is identified on a New-Brunswicker's birth certificate. Mine sure has it.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by niwell

I've noticed that many people in northern Ontario still refer to the Geographic Township they live in, particularly if it's outside a major municipality. In some cases individual townships are now municipalities, but that's quite rare. Many are parts of amalgamated single-tier municipalities (no upper/lower-tier in the North). Lots of others are unincorporated and the township name really has no relevance in any official capacity anymore.

Don't really know anyone from up north but I've heard quite a few people do the same for a few unincorporated communities. Sometimes they were an actual town pre-amalgamation and sometimes they weren't.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Lots of these townships actually still exist as municipalities. And the lines you see on that map often still exist as well (sometimes even as their original township borders, sometimes as municipal borders nowadays).

For a map that's actually ancient history, a county map of Quebec, or a seigneureries map of Quebec, few of those divisions are still relevant. (And even then...)

As evidenced also by St-Jean-sur-Richelieu indicated as "St. Johns" and Trois-Rivières as "Three Rivers" .

[megadude]

Love the names for the divisions out west. Lots of interesting native names. And cool names based on geographic features. Same with N. Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kirjtc2

You're right, it completely depends on the county as to whether it's still in common use in NB. You still hear a lot about Carleton, Charlotte or Albert; but nobody up north in their right mind refers to "Gloucester County", and "Northumberland County" is more or less the same as "the Miramichi". County governments were abolished in the 60s and they're now little more than lines on a map.

I used to process applications for use of crown land in NB and there was an entry for "county". Some got it right, some misread it and put "Canada", a lot of French speakers (where "comté" is synonymous with electoral riding) put that down instead.

(and don't get me started on parishes...)

For Gloucester County there is a catchier name which is "Acadian Peninsula".

In French you rarely hear "comté de Madawaska" for NW NB but the name "le Madawaska" is used all the time. As in "je viens du Madawaska".

The only county name commonly referred to as such in French is Kent: "je viens du comté de Kent / c'est dans le comté de Kent".

I've never heard anyone refer to Westmoreland County at all. It's always the Moncton area or in French "le sud est (du Nouveau-Brunswick)".

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by megadude

Interesting. In the last two years, and even just last month, I've explored Norfolk, Haldimand, Elgin and Oxford and most of their known towns by car and stopping for ice cream or whatever. Had no idea people were using the county term as much as you mention. But that's what happens when you grow up around the big city.

It might not be apparent when travelling through, other than town signs and road signs. Or if you happened to drive past a library branch or something.

I think the conversion to single tier probably contributed to it. And then there are things like the Norfolk County Fair. All the schools have the day off to go take part in competitions and go on rides, so you get to be aware what other schools are in the county and you all have that common experience. And there's only one Catholic high school, in Simcoe, so you get used to everyone being from a different town, or commonly, the middle of nowhere like me.

I suspect you might be right about city people and their knowledge of surrounding areas. I think that those from small towns would tend to have a better idea of the regional geography than those in big cities, due to having to travel. You could live your whole life in Mississauga and never need to leave, other than TO for sports games or concerts etc.

Wheras growing up in the country means trip to cities for school shopping, etc. Even trips to town for groceries. Where I grew up, groceries could be a trip to Simcoe or a trip to Tillsonburg, depending on deals and what else we needed. Larger trips meant a bigger city, and it's really due to preference if you went to KW, London or Hamilton. My mom went to Western, so she always shops in London. A coworker always goes to Hamilton since his family lives there. And then still going to big events or trips to Toronto and Niagara.

When I was looking at schools, three closest were Conestoga (KW), Fanshawe (London) and Mohawk (Hamilton) - with there only being a 10km difference from the closest to the farthest.