What keeps Atlanta from reaching LA, Chicago, or NYC levels?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by goat314

Atlanta does not have to be on New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago's level to be considered a global city. According to GaWC, an organization that researches global cities, there are definitely levels to being a global city.

GaWC measures interconnection among certain business functions. It has nothing to do with relative importance.

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by Crawford

GaWC measures interconnection among certain business functions. It has nothing to do with relative importance.

Yes and no. It's not perfect but gives you a general idea of which are the most important places internationally.

[Centropolis]

"GAWC" is the sound someone makes after birthday/tuesday night jaeger shots on the side of the bar. you just want it out, fast and clean.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

Yes and no. It's not perfect but gives you a general idea of which are the most important places internationally.

No it doesn't. It's (a) only about business, (b) even then it's only white collar, and (c) even then it omits local companies in those fields, in-house capabilities, etc.

It's as much as someone chose to bite off. Basically a data point when used correctly which it rarely is.

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

"GAWC" is the sound someone makes after birthday/tuesday night jaeger shots on the side of the bar. you just want it out, fast and clean.

That is true.

[SHiRO]

You've had the bullshit story from Crawford, now for the facts...


Don't know where to begin really...


Population

Amsterdam city: 870,000
urban area: 1.4M (Amsterdam has a Greenbelt)
metro area: 2.8M
Randstad: 7.3M (comparable to a CSA, but way smaller in area. Almost perfectely analogous to the Bay Area in population and both being multi nodal with a clear primate city).


Economy

Amsterdam-Randstad has a $450bn economy (2017) which is about the same as Houston and (significantly) bigger than Philadelphia ($430bn), Boston ($423), Atlanta ($363bn), Seattle ($330bn), Miami ($328bn) and Detroit ($253bn).

There are 7 Global 500 companies in the city and a total of 14 in the Randstad area. Compare this to Houston which has 5, Atlanta, Chicago and Dallas 4 each, Seattle has 3, Boston, Detroit and San Francisco 2 each, LA, Miami and Philadelphia 1 each.
As a matter of fact, the only cities in the world with more G500 companies than Amsterdam are Tokyo, New York, Beijing, Paris, London, Seoul (8), Shanghai (8), Zurich (8) and Silicon Valley (9)!
http://fortune.com/global500/visualizations/?iid=recirc_g500landing-zone1

Amsterdam Schiphol is Europe's 3rd busiest airport behind London and Paris, having recently overtaken Frankfurt (and regained its position over Istanbul and Madrid). Worldwide it's in the 12th spot. Amsterdam also has the most intercontinental connections after London, Paris, Frankfurt and perhaps Dubai.

Amsterdam is the 4th busiest port in Europe in its own right, nearby Rotterdam which is part of the Randstad metropolitan area is by far Europe's biggest and 7th in the world. The whole port system of the Rhine-Meuse-Scheldt delta (incl Antwerp) is probably stil 3rd behind the Yangtze river delta and PRD.

Amsterdam is the co-seat of the world's 7th stock exchange. (The first formal stock exchange was started in Amsterdam afterall).

One of the Big Four Auditors is located in Amsterdam. The other three are in NYC and London.


Cultural

Amsterdam has 3 of the top 100 most visited art museums in the world (Rijksmuseum, Van Gogh Museum, Stedelijk Museum). The only cities that have more are London, Paris, New York, Washington and Barcelona (and Barcelona has lower total attendance). Madrid also has 3. (There's also a dependency of the Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg in Amsterdam).

Amsterdam has the world's biggest electronic music festival (sorry Miami).

Amsterdam has 2 universities inside the city limits, a total of 6 in the Randstad. All 13 Dutch universities are in the global top 200 (THE-QS) or in the global top 500 (ARWU) btw.

18 million tourists visited Amsterdam in 2016. I'm not going to look it up now but that probably puts it in the global top also.


Political

Amsterdam is the capital of the 8th trading nation in the world and of one of the top 20 economies. And while the government resides in nearby The Hague (part of the Randstad metro area), many NGOs are HQed in Amsterdam, Greenpeace and World Press Photo to name a few.


I'm not listing all this to be a city booster or a homer, just to show that Amsterdam is indeed a major globally connected city. Also not to take away from other cities which each have their own strenghts and merits. As opposed to Crawford who has bashed, insulted and spread lies about just about any city not named NYC on this forum I'm a true city lover.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by DMPHL

It's MUCH more of a heavy weight globally than Atlanta.

In seriousness, Amsterdam is one of the biggest economic centers in Europe, the fourth largest port in Europe, home to 7 of the 500 biggest companies in the world with significant presences of many other global companies.

Its economic and cultural ties the USA aren't as strong which I think colors a lot of people's perceptions about it. But its economic ties to the rest of Europe, to Asia and the Indian sub-continent, the Middle East and Africa are quite strong.

That is directly a result of the "historic value" of its centuries-old global economic ambitions, and the deep roots it's grown around the world.

Good post. Thanks.

I would say however that after London/the UK, in Europe that Amsterdam/the Netherlands is most connected to the US both historically and economically. You're right that it's well connected to the rest of the world as well, this is a very internationally oriented country.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by mhays

God not that GaWC crap again. They don't count what you think they count.

This being an urban enthusiast oriented forum, I think most here would know what the GAWC "counts". It's pretty much what we're debating here, global connectivity/importance (with a focus on international business).

Originally Posted by mhays

For Amsterdam I think people are putting too much credence on history and culture.

Seems to me that you are the one with an information deficit and are not aware of how much of an economic heavyweight Amsterdam is. I've seen it before on this forum but usually it's targetted towards Paris or Rome or something.
Also, this statement flies in the face of your dismissal of the GaWC ranking. Which is it?

Originally Posted by Crawford

GaWC measures interconnection among certain business functions. It has nothing to do with relative importance.

Surely you realize this overstates US cities and understates cities like Berlin and Rome in that particular list.

Imagen if cultural and political relevance was added to the mix. You really think Atlanta would still be an Alpha city and not Berlin or Rome?

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

I said relative lightweight, of course it's also relative big player. Just nowhere near the level of New York or London or the like.

Which is it?

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not counting out 50 cities, but in Europe alone, I would say the following 14 cities are clearly larger/more important than Amsterdam:

In North America alone, the following 14 cities are clearly larger/more important than Amsterdam:

Let me fix that for you...


Clearly more important globally than Amsterdam in all major categories:
NY
Paris
London


More important in most major categories:
Los Angeles (hard to compare)
Chicago (I think Amsterdam has the edge culturally)
Washington (Amsterdam has more global companies/multinationals)
Moscow (Amsterdam is more internationally connected)


Same importance or close: (these are Amsterdam's global peers imo)
San Francisco
Brussels
Milan
Madrid
Toronto

Added by me:
Singapore
Kuala Lumpur
Sydney
Taipei


More important on one or some accounts, less important on all others:
Rome (political!, cultural!)
Berlin (political!, cultural!)
Frankfurt (finance)
Barcelona

Istanbul (population)
Mexico City (population, capital of a big country)
Along with Sao Paulo, Jakarta, Buenos Aires, etc these are hard to compare.


Clearly less important on the global stage: (I've been to most of these btw)
Vienna (big capital city but it's not part of a extended/combined urban area that boosts its population "hinterland" like the others in Amsterdam's tier)
Munich
Boston (education being the exception)
Philadelphia
Houston
Dallas
Atlanta
Miami
Seattle
St. Petersburg ( you tried to sneak this one in, didn't you? Literally can't think of anything where St Petersburg edges out Amsterdam. Even that city's canals were modelled after Amsterdam's.) Fine city though. Underrated.

So that's almost 30 cities already. Then there are a ton of cities that are roughly even. Places like Montreal, Detroit, Hamburg, Cologne, Stuttgart, Copenhagen, Budapest, Prague, Warsaw, Stockholm, Lisbon, Athens

It gets more ridiculous... Cities like Hamburg, Cologne, Stuttgart, Copenhagen and Stockholm have roughly the same population and economy (when not counting Randstad) and some of those are also national capitals, but they're clearly less important in all other categories. Cities like Athens, Lisbon, Warsaw, Budapest and Prague are also historic capitals with roughly the same population (again not counting Randstad), but can't compete economically now can they?

And I think I'm being pretty generous regarding the "even" cities. Somewhere like Detroit has easily twice the population and economy, and is an global economic hegemon in a specific industry. Somewhere like Budapest has a much more extensive urban form and much more monumental feel.

You're not being generous you're being unrealistic and what's more, you're spreading falsehoods. Detroit is a much smaller city than Amsterdam in a less populated region and nowhere near as connected. Its regional economy is little over half that of Randstad and while Randstad hosts 14 of the world's biggest multinationals, Detroit has 2 indeed in one specific industry.

Budapest is a big historical capital, with a beautiful urban form, but it lacks connections and economic punch. I'd be surprised if its economy is 1/4 of Amsterdam's. Monumental feel? Is that a Crawford Criteria now? Venice also has monumental feel.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Top 5, easily. Amsterdam wouldn't be in the Top 50. It might barely be Top 100.

Ridiculous. Amsterdam is solidly in the top 25. The GaWC classification as an Alpha city is exactely on point.

Rotterdam is pretty much on Amsterdam's level. Not as as tourist center, obviously, but similar size, economy and, until recently, the most important port anywhere on the planet.

Rotterdam is on the same level going by population and size of economy (although it lags there too), but it's not in the same universe when it comes to importance on a global scale. It's a nice national rivalry but Amsterdam is unquestionably the country's primate city.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Houston, to me, is far above Amsterdam. Around 3x the size and wealth. More important for basically everything excepting tourism.

The size of the economy is about the same. Randstad is more populated though, so if you want to compare apples to apples and not compare the vast area you call "Houston" here and compare it to the municipality of Amsterdam that would be great... Other than that, I can't think of a major category where Houston has a clear edge over Amsterdam/Randstad. Medical maybe? Petro? Well there's that Port of Rotterdam and the industry there which is probably about the same size as Houston's. Plus the HQ of the world's biggest oil company off course. Space then? ESA/ESTEC is also in de Randstad but I would give this to Houston. Not a major category though... Nothing against Houston btw. Fine city. Along with places like Atlanta and Dallas it gets way too much crap on this forum, mainly by YOU!

NYC has a larger economic output than Tokyo, BTW

False

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Crawford

GaWC measures interconnection among certain business functions. It has nothing to do with relative importance.

Economic interconnectivity is the most objective way to measure globalization and therefore rank how global a city is. Culture and quality of urbanism are way more subjective. There are third world cities that are bigger, more diverse, and vibrant than Boston or San Franciso, but that doesn't mean that city is global. That's why GAWC is consistently given credibility in their global city rankings.

[jd3189]

Shiro setting everyone straight. Mercy that was a dose of reality

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Shiro setting everyone straight. Mercy that was a dose of reality

Not everyone, just Crawford. I was glad to see that some others already were setting the record straight (thanks btw)

But also sad that the same old relentless city bashers are still up to their old tricks and that this thread almost has turned into city vs city again.
Now watch him not give an inch and doubling down probably.

[the urban politician]

Amsterdam has a cultural edge over Chicago? Hmmmm. Let's explore this further

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Amsterdam has a cultural edge over Chicago? Hmmmm. Let's explore this further

I'll let someone else take this alright... (or not)

[The North One]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

You're not being generous you're being unrealistic and what's more, you're spreading falsehoods. Detroit is a much smaller city than Amsterdam in a less populated region and nowhere near as connected. Its regional economy is little over half that of Randstad and while Randstad hosts 14 of the world's biggest multinationals, Detroit has 2 indeed in one specific industry.

I might be a little meticulous here but this isn't exactly a fair comparison since Randstad is a megalopolis with multiple large and distinct cities. Metro Amsterdam itself has a population of 2.4 million, while metro Detroit CSA is around 4 million. So no, Amsterdam itself is not larger.

Detroit MSA (which has an area much more comparable to Randstad) is at about 5 million, Randstad is about 7 million. So yes Randstad is definitely larger and more important.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Amsterdam has a cultural edge over Chicago? Hmmmm. Let's explore this further

You think a barely 200 year old city with a limited cultural footprint in its own country has more global cultural relevance than the 700 year old capital of once-global colonial empire?

No one in Indonesia cares (or even knows) that house is from Chicago or what deep dish pizza is. But 220 million+ Indonesians use a ton of Dutch loan words throughout their daily conversations. And we have the Dutch to thank for Sinterklaas. Santa is from Amsterdam, not the North Pole.

I'm seriously curious as to which Chicago cultural exports you feel are global outside of house, which semi-ironically has been driven by European DJs - particularly Dutch ones - since the mid 90s.

[Steely Dan]

The twinkie was invented in chicago......... so fuck tulips.

Originally Posted by Shawn

No one in Indonesia cares (or even knows) that house is from Chicago.

shit, no one in chicago cares (or even knows) that house is from chicago.

[mhays]

Ok, you win on Amsterdam Shiro. I wasn't being fair in crediting the surrounding satellites as part of the metro area.

GAWC is another story. If it's about "connectivity" that's closer to the truth, though it's still only a data point. It has very little to do with "importance" of a city for the reasons I've said, except the portion that's about corporate white-collar roles that are serviced by certain multinational third party firms. Edit: culture influence over the centuries isn't the same as present tense cultural influence.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Shawn

You think a barely 200 year old city with a limited cultural footprint in its own country has more global cultural relevance than the 700 year old capital of once-global colonial empire?

No one in Indonesia cares (or even knows) that house is from Chicago or what deep dish pizza is. But 220 million+ Indonesians use a ton of Dutch loan words throughout their daily conversations. And we have the Dutch to thank for Sinterklaas. Santa is from Amsterdam, not the North Pole.

I'm seriously curious as to which Chicago cultural exports you feel are global outside of house, which semi-ironically has been driven by European DJs - particularly Dutch ones - since the mid 90s.

This is a hard case to argue against because you set it up that way. Ok so Indonesians use Dutch loan words...what does that have to do with modern Amsterdam? And you are being disappointingly unbecoming by simply defining Chicago culture by silly cliches like deep dish pizza.

It's hard to distinguish what cultural exports came from Chicago versus other places because America is such a melting pot. But there are business cultural exports, architectural and building standards throughout the world, as well as global culture celebrated locally that may not necessarily be exported to any substantial degree. It's hard to quantify, but I continue to wonder how you can even begin to quantify a place's culture versus another unless you are intimately knowledgeable about it.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

The twinkie was invented in chicago......... so fuck tulips.


shit, no one in chicago cares (or even knows) that house is from chicago.

Was there ever Twinkie mania? I mean, as a San Franciscan, I'm well aware that Twinkies can cause mania but has there been a mania to buy and sell them? Of course, I've always considered it manic to deep fry them but that's a Southern thing and they do some strange things in the southern backwoods.

PS: Snowballs put Twinkies to shame. They were probably invented in Amsterdam. There's certainly nothing better to bring to a cannabis parlor wth you.


http://www.businessinsider.com/hostess-sno-ball-history-2012-11