Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[lrt's friend]

They had to pick one to be stage 3. As for why Kanata, I suspect it is because the stretch between Knoxdale and West Hunt Club would be very expensive for a Confederation Line extension and rehashing the old, unpopular Trillium line extension to Barrhaven so soon would be political suicide and with a transfer at Bayview and single track, it would make what would have been a slow route even slower.

With all the interchange modifications required for the Kanata extension, I am not sure how much more expensive the Knoxdale-West Hunt Club tunnel will be.

There is no question that the Trillium Line extension to Barrhaven on the original route cannot be built as long as the trunk portion of the line is single track and not electrified. It is just a shame that we bought up a corridor and it will not be put to good use. Despite all the comments about speed, the route would have been popular for reasons that escape most people, that it would have connected places in the city that are presently not well connected by transit.

The reason why we don't do anything for Barrhaven, the fastest growing sector of Ottawa, is because we don't have the political will to do so. It is sad.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The reason why we don't do anything for Barrhaven, the fastest growing sector of Ottawa, is because we don't have the political will to do so. It is sad.

Barrhaven is still much more likely to see real mass transit, and sooner, than any central neighbourhood is. Political will and budget: central city taxpayers are only there to fund LRT extensions to the suburbs, apparently.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Barrhaven is still much more likely to see real mass transit, and sooner, than any central neighbourhood is. Political will and budget: central city taxpayers are only there to fund LRT extensions to the suburbs, apparently.

As I said before, we are setting ourselves up for a requirement for 100% reserved right of ways for rail or nothing. In the central city, this means subways at their extreme costs. This becomes almost impossible to cost justify. With this philosophy, how does even Carling LRT get built? And even if it does get built, it will not be going downtown. This is a pity and so contrary to how central city LRT operates in Europe. All similar lines in Europe would run into some part of the downtown area. The reality is that we don't have the will to limit private car access in the central city even if it is simply a matter of eliminating one traffic lane or on street parking along a proposed route.

We have some very screwed up priorities. The same logic prevents us from considering interlining in order to provide the most convenience for the most people. Instead, we use the excuse that we have to transfer multiple times to get anywhere. Doesn't work if you want people to use the system and to make it become the primary mode of transport for more people. So, we want people to use transit but force them to transfer multiple times, while we free up streets for more private vehicles , which involve zero transfers. And this makes public transit more competitive?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As I said before, we are setting ourselves up for a requirement for 100% reserved right of ways for rail or nothing. In the central city, this means subways at their extreme costs. This becomes almost impossible to cost justify. With this philosophy, how does even Carling LRT get built? And even if it does get built, it will not be going downtown. This is a pity and so contrary to how central city LRT operates in Europe. All similar lines in Europe would run into some part of the downtown area. The reality is that we don't have the will to limit private car access in the central city even if it is simply a matter of eliminating one traffic lane or on street parking along a proposed route.

We have some very screwed up priorities. The same logic prevents us from considering interlining in order to provide the most convenience for the most people. Instead, we use the excuse that we have to transfer multiple times to get anywhere. Doesn't work if you want people to use the system and to make it become the primary mode of transport for more people. So, we want people to use transit but force them to transfer multiple times, while we free up streets for more private vehicles , which involve zero transfers. And this makes public transit more competitive?

But the density of the central core justifies the cost. We would get way more bang for our buck (or potential riders per billion spent) then the loop-t-a-loops studied in Kanata.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Barrhaven is still much more likely to see real mass transit, and sooner, than any central neighbourhood is. Political will and budget: central city taxpayers are only there to fund LRT extensions to the suburbs, apparently.

Wrong. Also widen highways and build underpasses on existing roads to the suburbs.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

With all the interchange modifications required for the Kanata extension, I am not sure how much more expensive the Knoxdale-West Hunt Club tunnel will be.

Interchange underpasses can largely be cut and cover, so they aren't terribly expensive and the Moodie drive one is partly complete and Kanata avenue has an unused transit underpass ready and waiting. That just leaves Eagleson, Terry Fox and under the 417 to the Palladium (assuming we proceed with that foolish terminus (if we must extend to Kanata, it should only be as far as Terry Fox IMHO)).

A Knoxdale-West Hunt Club tunnel would have to be quite deep to not disturb the houses directly above (or to not disturb the big water main under Woodroffe), so I expect expropriation is the only viable option. Also it isn't as if the Barrhaven extension is without other cross streets that would require underpasses.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interchange underpasses can largely be cut and cover, so they aren't terribly expensive and the Moodie drive one is partly complete and Kanata avenue has an unused transit underpass ready and waiting. That just leaves Eagleson, Terry Fox and under the 417 to the Palladium (assuming we proceed with that foolish terminus (if we must extend to Kanata, it should only be as far as Terry Fox IMHO)).

A Knoxdale-West Hunt Club tunnel would have to be quite deep to not disturb the houses directly above (or to not disturb the big water main under Woodroffe), so I expect expropriation is the only viable option. Also it isn't as if the Barrhaven extension is without other cross streets that would require underpasses.

We already recognize that the at grade crossings in Barrhaven will have to be separated whether we build LRT there or not.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As I said before, we are setting ourselves up for a requirement for 100% reserved right of ways for rail or nothing.

I know; it's ludicrous and short-sighted. That is, par for the course in Ottawa.

In the central city, this means subways at their extreme costs.

In other words: never. Ottawa is too cheap, and now structurally too suburban, to ever see another underground rail line likely for the next 100 years or more, and too averse to any other way of thinking to see any surface lines running non-segregated on surface streets.

As far as the inner city neighbourhoods are concerned, we are getting the worst of all possible worlds: a transit spine that is entirely oriented towards traffic between the office towers and the suburban homes of those who work in them, and a bus system that is fixated on delivering people to and from that LRT, doing everything else poorly. Very, very, very poorly.

This becomes almost impossible to cost justify. With this philosophy, how does even Carling LRT get built?

Carling isn't even the main trouble spot for inside-the-greenbelt transit; the real problem is the northeast, esp. the Rideau-Montreal axis, which is not getting anything other than.... EVEN SLOWER BUSES. All the options on the table for Montreal Road reconstruction will result in even slower bus movements. It's insane.

The reality is that we don't have the will to limit private car access in the central city even if it is simply a matter of eliminating one traffic lane or on street parking along a proposed route.

The best that can probably be done, and even that is a long-shot, is to start nudging workplace parking in the direction of multiple-occupant vehicles. You want a parking spot under your office in 240 Sparks or wherever? Great - indicate on your application form who the other members of your car pool are.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Wrong. Also widen highways and build underpasses on existing roads to the suburbs.

Sorry, my bad.

Also, they aren't "highways and underpasses", they are "road projects ancillary to public transit investment".

[waterloowarrior]

Open House #2 - December 7, 2017
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-en...sment-study#open-house-2-december-7-2017
Thursday, December 7, 2017
Kanata Recreation Complex, Hall A
100 Charlie Rogers Pl, K2V 1A2
5:30 to 8:30 p.m. (presentation at 6:30 p.m.)
OC Transpo routes: 61, 88, 167
Parking is available

The City of Ottawa has initiated this Planning and Environmental Assessment (EA) study to develop a Recommended Plan to extend Light Rail Transit (LRT) from Moodie Drive to Kanata. Extending LRT to Kanata is identified in the Ultimate Network in the City's 2013 Transportation Master Plan (TMP). The previous Open House for this project was held in June 2017. At that time, the City presented the evaluation of alternative corridors and identified a preliminary preferred corridor.

To date, the Study Team has finalized the recommended corridor and at this open house will present design details on the recommended plan, station locations and concept designs, and the requirement for a light maintenance and storage facility.


For reference - Open House 1 display boards http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents.ottawa.ca/files/kanata_lrt_poh1_boards_en.pdf

[Arcologist]

They've got more planned stations in Kanata than they're building in the downtown core...

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

They've got more planned stations in Kanata than they're building in the downtown core...

Well, at least until some time in the 23rd century, when, after having built LRT from Smiths Falls to L'Orignal to Kemptville, downtown finally gets a second line.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

They've got more planned stations in Kanata than they're building in the downtown core...

I am hopeful Kanata will be like Orleans, where the number of stations is whittled down a tad due to costs, etc...

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I am hopeful Kanata will be like Orleans, where the number of stations is whittled down a tad due to costs, etc...

I don't begrudge the suburbs getting that kind of station density. Rather build them out now, rather than infill later.

If we want to whittle down the costs, scrap the grand architectural statements and public art setasides, and build stations where function, current and future, is the primary driver of the budget. How much more bang can we get for the same buck by building more modest structures without the completely unnecessary and vain swooping rooflines?

What I *do* begrudge is the complete lack of urban transit plan. When will it be urban Ottawa's turn?

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

What I *do* begrudge is the complete lack of urban transit plan. When will it be urban Ottawa's turn?

Transportation Master Plan, November 2013:
Map 4 Rapid Transit and Transit Priority Network – 2031 Network Concept
http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents.ottawa.ca/files/documents/tmp_map_4_en.pdf

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

If we want to whittle down the costs, scrap the grand architectural statements and public art setasides, and build stations where function, current and future, is the primary driver of the budget. How much more bang can we get for the same buck by building more modest structures without the completely unnecessary and vain swooping rooflines

It is pretty incredible the amount set aside for artwork in the stations. I can understand the downtown stations being architecturally substantial, but the suburbs should 100% be utilitarian. Sort of like some of the older transitway stations. Overhead cover on the platform with some heated space, but I highly doubt that.

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

Transportation Master Plan, November 2013:
Map 4 Rapid Transit and Transit Priority Network – 2031 Network Concept
http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents.ottawa.ca/files/documents/tmp_map_4_en.pdf

Im sure Uhuniau is familiar with this. But it is far from beneficial to parts of the City like Vanier or the Bank street corridor.

[McC]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

It is pretty incredible the amount set aside for artwork in the stations.

It's 1% of the City's share of the capital costs, that's literally a rounding error on the total cost.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Well, at least until some time in the 23rd century, when, after having built LRT from Smiths Falls to L'Orignal to Kemptville, downtown finally gets a second line.

No, no, no! We are building LRT to Carleton Place and Rockland first, all one line that keeps getting extended. There will always be a reason to keep building further. Screw everybody else.

Once we get out to the exurbs, it will be a whole lot cheaper to keep extending it than building a second line from downtown. Worse than the Transitway project.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

No, no, no! We are building LRT to Carleton Place and Rockland first, all one line that keeps getting extended. There will always be a reason to keep building further. Screw everybody else.

Well, the city already owns the corridor to Carleton place.... Hmm may as well make use of it amiright?!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well, the city already owns the corridor to Carleton place.... Hmm may as well make use of it amiright?!

Except it would have to have some meaningless termination station in the bush at the city boundary.